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Stellaris Dev Diary #127 - Trade Value and Trade Routes

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today we're going to continue talking about the 2.2 'Le Guin' update, on the topic of Trade Value and Trade Routes. As said before, we're not yet ready to reveal anything about when Le Guin is coming out, only that it's a long time away and we have many more topics to cover before then. Also as said before, screenshots will contain placeholder art and interfaces and non-final numbers.

Trade Value
Trade Value is a new value that's being added in the Le Guin update for non-Gestalt empires, representing the civilian and private-sector economies of these empires. All Pops generate a small amount of Trade Value based on their living standards, with higher living standard Pops generating more trade value, and is also produced by a number of different jobs such as Clerks and Merchants. Additionally, Trade Value can be found as deposits in space, representing various resources that don't have a direct industrial application but might still be desirable to your population (for a real-life example, think of things like as precious stones used in jewelry). Trade Value has no inherent purpose, but can be turned into other resources by being exploited, representing taxation and tariffs imposed on the civilian economy by an empire that has the necessary infrastructure in place to benefit from it.
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In order for Trade Value to count as exploited, it has to fulfill two conditions:

1) There must be an upgraded Starbase in range from the system to collect the Trade Value. By default, upgraded Starbases can only collect inside their own system, but their collection range can be extended by constructing additional Trade Hub modules, with each module extending the collection range by a single system up to a maximum of 6 hyperlane jumps away. You do not need to build an orbital station to collect trade value from planets - this is done automatically if it is in range of a collecting Starbase.

2) Once collected, Trade Value needs to be sent to your capital system. This will be done automatically if the Starbase collecting is located in said capital system, but otherwise the Starbase must be connected to the capital through a Trade Route (more on that below).

Trade Value that is successfully exploited will be converted into other resources (currently, trade value is turned into energy credits at a 1:1 conversion rate, but which exact resources it becomes is fully scriptable and may differ depending on your empire type) and added to your monthly income.
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Trade Routes
Trade Routes are paths are that used to connect remote Starbases to your capital in order to exploit the trade value collected there. Each upgraded Starbase can support a single Trade Route by connecting to another Starbase, which is where the first Starbase will send all of its collected trade value. For example, an empire might have a remote Starbase (we'll call it starbase A), which is sending trade value to another Starbase closer to the capital (starbase B), which in turn sends on both its collected trade and all trade sent to it by starbase A on to the capital. The player has full control over which Starbase sends its value where, and can redraw routes, though there may be an efficiency loss on a newly drawn route for a time.

This means that if starbase A collects a value of 10 from the systems around it, and starbase B collects 15, 10 value will be sent from A to B and all 25 combined value is then sent on to C (the capital) and is successfully exploited. Any trade value that fails to reach the capital, either because of lack of collection, lack of a route, or piracy (more on that below) is wasted - the empire gets no benefits from it - so it'll be especially important to ensure any populous colonies that are generating a lot of trade value are properly connected via trade routes to your capital.

Trades routes will have a special map filter showing routes, protection and piracy, and is also planned to be visualized inside the systems, but more on that later.
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(Ignore any weird visuals such as sector borders, it's just a bug)

Piracy and Trade Defense
Of course, all that lucrative merchandise being moved through space won't exactly go unnoticed by the less savory elements of your empire. Over time, piracy will begin to accumulate along trade routes, especially routes with a high degree of trade value moving through them. For each system with piracy that the trade route passes through, a certain amount of the trade value will be lost. To combat piracy, an empire can make use of a combination of Starbases and fleet Patrols. All upgraded Starbases will have a trade protection value, that is essentially a minimum amount of trade value that will always make it through any system under their protection, regardless of the level of piracy (representing heavily escorted merchant convoys). By default, this trade protection is only for the system they are located in, but can be extended to additional systems by building defensive modules such as Hangar Bays.
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Additionally, any military fleet can be given orders to patrol a route between two Starbases to actively eliminate pirates and reduce the amount of piracy in the systems. The old system of spawning pirate ships in empty systems adjacent to your empire will also change - instead, pirate fleets may spawn in systems where a large amount of trade value is being lost to pirates. Overall, pirate fleets is something you will experience less often and can actively work to prevent, but will be more of an actual threat when they do spawn. We will most likely keep some sort of penalty for having a sprawling empire with a lot of unprotected connections, possibly by simply raising the amount of piracy experienced along your trade routes, or some sort of efficiency penalty. We may also have a system similar to the old pirates for Gestalts, since they do not have access to Trade Value or Trade Routes.
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(Yes, we know the grammar/spelling is wrong, no need to point it out - the icons are also placeholders)

That's all for today! Next week we're continuing to talk about the Le Guin update, on the topic of Decisions and Planetary Bombardment

EDIT: Since it keeps being asked, at this point we are not ready to talk about how trade trades/trade agreements with other empires will work, only that they will exist in some form.
 
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emh... why ? ... hyperlane are the way to travel, securing choke point have a military value .
they just added a new "value " to the game with the trade route .
hyperlanes are too static, they were an excuse for creating strategic locations. They don't really make sense in space. Now we can create naturally routes that actually make sense.
 
This system seems really cool, I'm excited for it.

Here's a question I have. You mention that Starbase protection against pirates can be extended through hanger modules. Do any combat modules, like the guns and lasers, have this effect, or is it specifically hanger modules? If it's specifically the hangers, does this imply a change in the way strike craft work in the coming update?
 
Should trade routes increase the speed of military ships along its length? All those ships going along it would make it mapped out with a lot of detail, as well as regular maintenance to remove anything in the way, so faster speeds would still be safe.
 
hyperlanes are too static, they were an excuse for creating strategic locations. They don't really make sense in space. Now we can create naturally routes that actually make sense.

I ... i'm not sure i understand what you are saying there....

you think we can make "new route" in the meaning of create new way for ships to travel? because what the DD mean is that we chose the hyperlane the trade routes will take , not the other way around .

and about FTL there is a permanent treath on the forum where you can talk about that. not going to go deeper in this here.
 
Devs: The new pop system seems to make lategame less of a framey lagfest
Community: Could you put 100's of civilian ships moving aimlessly across trade routes because they're immersive?

As someone who already can't play lategame on the largest galaxy settings without lategame stuttering, pls no kill my ability to play the game at all.

I think it's certainly a good question.

That said, other games do seem to manage this. Creating a living world with trade ships moving between systems isn't theoretically impossible because it is done elsewhere. I don't know enough about the programming of Stellaris to say anything for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if pops are particularly resource intensive.
 
Piracy and crime, profitable trade routes that can be sabotaged, pop division by strata, need for stability on planets, sectors that actaully make sense. I sense a great potential for espionage. My bet is that the next large update will focus on politics espionage and diplomacy. ( on seocond though espionage will probably be a DLC, but Im ok with that)

Yes, it seems more and more clearly with each DD that 2.2 is laying many foundations for realy interesting future patches. However I am sure espionage will be mainly free content, with exception of some mechanics like stealth ships, etc.
 
Yes, it seems more and more clearly with each DD that 2.2 is laying many foundations for realy interesting future patches. However I am sure espionage will be mainly free content, with exception of some mechanics like stealth ships, etc.
I think diplomacy will be free, with a bare bones espionage system that they can then add features to in DLC, and that'll be the DLC for diplomacy.
 
It would be nice to see a lot of small ships (maybe even with race style) flowing along the trade routes till the starbases/capital :)
More or less depending on the value of the trade route.
I think will make a more "living" galaxy.

Oo yes

Or a few large civilian freighters occasionally crossing the void.

I'd imagine it would be less taxing on system resources to model a few large entities as opposed to many small ones.

I actually think it isn't so much size of the graphical entities but whether they are interactable. I'd think if it were purely a graphical thing (think the little trade ships you see in EU4), it won't affect performance much if at all since the game doesn't need to track individual civilian ships/fleets. You'd only see them when you zoomed into a system.
 
Devs: The new pop system seems to make lategame less of a framey lagfest
Community: Could you put 100's of civilian ships moving aimlessly across trade routes because they're immersive?

As someone who already can't play lategame on the largest galaxy settings without lategame stuttering, pls no kill my ability to play the game at all.

No reason why it couldn’t be a toggle setting. And I’m not 100% but ships travelling down a fixed route should be a lot less resource intensive than ships that who regularly recalculate their routes.
 
I actually think it isn't so much size of the graphical entities but whether they are interactable. I'd think if it were purely a graphical thing (think the little trade ships you see in EU4), it won't affect performance much if at all since the game doesn't need to track individual civilian ships/fleets. You'd only see them when you zoomed into a system.

Although that said, I'd also make them interactable. At least if it's practicable.

Otherwise I think one concern I'd have is that this might become a very passive system. If everything is abstracted, then where is the player interaction? Won't players end up just parking a few fleets here and there to get the piracy percentage down, and then forgetting about them altogether? If you have to take the starbase to disrupt a trade route, will it be practical? If not, again, won't it just be about parking a couple of ships in the system and forgetting about them?
 
By default, this trade protection is only for the system they are located in, but can be extended to additional systems by building defensive modules such as Hangar Bays.

There will definitely be a difference between ships in how good they are at patrolling.

Sounds like they're moving in the direction of making strike craft viable for trade route defense. In theory, this would make hangar cruisers the most efficient patrolling hull: More efficient upkeep-per-fleet point than a mono-corvette fleet, which is important because there's no point in eliminating trade value loss if it costs just as much or more energy to do so. Meanwhile, you don't really want your battleships anywhere but the front due to their sluggishness and massive drain on your naval capacity. It's a start at least.

I say in theory because strike craft are still woefully under-performing, and quite frankly broken in many regards. I'd still look for any reason possible not to have my naval capacity wasted on hangar hulls.
 
Devs: The new pop system seems to make lategame less of a framey lagfest
Community: Could you put 100's of civilian ships moving aimlessly across trade routes because they're immersive?

As someone who already can't play lategame on the largest galaxy settings without lategame stuttering, pls no kill my ability to play the game at all.
EU4 already has a menu for turning off graphical effects. If Stellaris gets a bunch of ambient objects like cosmetic ships, stations, and other stuff, I can see them doing a similar options menu.

And if they're actual ships, I doubt it would be a big performance hit. It would probably be like those neutral space whales except moving along your empire's trade routes.
 
Hyperlane Registrars will probably have some effect on trade, yeah. As you say it makes sense.
Another thing worth considering is giving a bonus to sublight speed and jump speed to any military ship on a trade route between two stations that both have a Registrar.
That way you can make space highways, very useful for a wide Empire.
 
We're considering the ability to add additional collection points, but we don't want to make this easy as then there would be no need for long trade routes ever.

Just a suggestion but you could have a tier 3/4 research that lets you build a building that can designate a plane for trade value collection, perhaps with a prohibitively (though not entirely pointless let to construct.
 
Can't we just do special trade goods? Give a look at John Sandford's "Saturn Run." They do space trade right, in that book. Nobody else has ever gotten it, yet.

You could do space tourism, too...instead of actual space trade.

Space trade like the way trade works on Earth now, just isn't ever going to be a thing.