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Stellaris Dev Diary #153 - Empire Sprawl & Administrative Capacity

Hello everyone!
We’re back with yet another dev diary to showcase some more fruits of summer experimentation. As with the previous dev diary, this involved a lot of work carried out during the summer and involves something I’ve wanted to explore for a good while now.

Today we’ll be talking about empire sprawl and administrative capacity. Do note that these changes are still fairly young in their development, so numbers and implementation details may not be representative of what it will look like in the end.

As a background, I can mention that I have a grander idea of where I want to take these mechanics, but it will not all happen at once. These changes aim to mimic state bureaucracy or overhead created by managing a large empire. As a minor aspect I also wanted you to be able to experience the funny absurdity of having a planet entirely dedicated to bureaucracy. The movie Brazil is a great source of inspiration here :)

Empire Sprawl
We wanted to expand on how empire sprawl is used, so that it becomes a more interesting mechanic. The largest change means that pops now increase empire sprawl. Most things in your empire should be increasing empire sprawl to various degrees, to represent the administrative burden they impose.

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Empire Sprawl can now be modified from its different sources, and as an example, the Courier Networks expansion tradition will now reduce empire sprawl caused directly by the number of planets and systems. As another example shows, the Harmony traditions finisher now reduces the total empire sprawl caused by all your pops.

We are also able to modify how much empire sprawl each pop contributes, and we’ve added a couple of new species traits that affect it. There are also machine variants of these traits.

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We have also increased the penalty for the amount of empire sprawl that exceeds your administrative capacity. The goal is not to make administrative a hard cap, but we want to make it necessary to invest some of your resources into increasing your administrative capacity. More on that later.

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The current plan is for machine empires to be more reliant on keeping their administrative capacity in line with their empire sprawl, so machine empires will suffer a much harsher penalty for exceeding their cap. We want machines to feel “centralized” and to perhaps favor a more “tall” playstyle.

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Hive Minds, on the other hand, should be more tolerant of a sprawling empire where unmanaged drones are able to fall back on their instincts whenever they cannot maintain a responsive connection to the hive mind. Therefore, hive minds should be more tolerant of a “wide” playstyle.

Administrative Capacity
With all these changes to empire sprawl, what about administrative capacity, I imagine you asking? Well, since empire sprawl is becoming an expanded concept, administrative capacity will naturally be a part of that. Increasing your administrative capacity will now be a part of planning your empire’s economy.

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For regular empires, the bureaucrat is a new job that increases your administrative capacity at the cost of consumer goods. This is also a specialist job, and has needs accordingly. Administrators are unchanged, and do not currently affect administrative capacity or bureaucrats.

For machine empires, the coordinators have changed roles from producing unity to now increasing administrative capacity instead, and they are more effective than bureaucrats. A new job called Evaluators now produce unity for machine empires.

Hive Minds currently have the hardest time to produce administrative capacity, but it has been added as a function of the synapse drone job.

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Certain sources that previously increased administrative capacity by a static amount now increase is by a percentage amount instead. This doesn’t affect the output of the jobs, but rather increases the total administrative capacity directly.

Summary
Personally I’m very excited for these changes and I’m very much looking forward to taking it to its next step in the future. I hope you enjoyed reading about the changes that will come to Stellaris sometime later this year. As always, we’ll be interested to hear your thoughts.

As mentioned in last week’s dev diary, the schedule for dev diaries will now be bi-weekly, so the next dev diary will be in another 2 weeks.
 
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just in case noone has thrown in the famous Oscar Wilde quote yet (didn' read the whole thread)

“The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.”

looking forward to filling whole planets with nitpicking buerocrats. or invading foreign buerocrat worlds with xenomorph armies specifically bred for that planet. i'd consider it a war crime using them against fellow intelligent beings - except for buerocrats of course.
 
Most things in your empire should be increasing empire sprawl to various degrees, to represent the administrative burden they impose.
What about "buildings" ? ...

Certain sources that previously increased administrative capacity (like the "Imperial Prerogative"-A-Perk) by a static amount now increase is by a percentage amount instead.
Good since such sources (with static numbers) were / are always a bit useless the more you're engaging towards the end of a game ...

For regular empires, the bureaucrat is a new job that increases your administrative capacity at the cost of consumer goods.
By the way, this is how all the other "buildings" (more precisely: their provided jobs) should work: 1 "building" (like the "administrative office") provides 1 job (like the "bureaucrat") (or several of the same ones (like 1+ "bureaucrats")), which produces / produce 1 output (like "administrative capacity"): Currently, it's pretty annoying, that a lot "buildings" (more precisely: their provided jobs) produce a zillion of different things, so that none of them has an actual purpose.
 
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Today we’ll be talking about empire sprawl and administrative capacity.
How will these changes impact late game performance? Also, any news on a performance point release?

I'm not playing Stellaris because the late game is so slow. Thus, this dev diary sadly provides me no useful information.
 
Machine Empires are the last ones to complain about being weak.

Though the crushing admin cap penalty is bizarre. Like, as others have said, Exterminators and Assimilators paint the map.

Stop trying to make Tall a thing. It'll always be a gimmick relying on your neighbors not crushing you in the first 30 years as you rush science.
Two out of four does not a Race Make. You discount Rogue Servitor and... *Gasp* Not picking one of those two Genocidal Civics or the one civic that ruins the best economical advantage of playing a Machine Empire!

It's not like our traits are provably inferior to Organics past the start of the game or anything, or again, lesser value in population numbers after Synthetic Ascension, or that we lack an Ascension Path. No, just assume everyone is an Assimilator or Exterminator because that's the fucking META!

I like playing Tall but would it kill Paradox to give Machines more than like... Seven points considering Organics can hit a whopping 12 (14 with Compatibility and their Relic) while keeping our individual civics equal or worse mathematically to our Organic counterparts?
 
Here is a wish relating to Admin Cap and a potential Diplomacy DLC: If I am exceeding my admin cap, that means things get lost, information not processed and my bureaucrats will miss things more easily, so should enemy infiltrators and spies not have a greater chance at success?

My administration is already buried under too much work, it takes way too long to identify potential issues and formulate a proper reaction. Much like in Warhammer 40K, where it can take centuries, before the central Imperial government takes note of an emerging threat, which carries the obvious grimdark consequences. Also yay for bureaucracy (+Archive) worlds! SciFi-Tropes are good.
 
I'm not clear on why this is happening?

I mean, is this going to be fun, does it add additional challenge, does it increase immersion?

It seems like a rather boring addition frankly. Maybe it will work mechanically, but honestly I feel this is going to be a nuisance in the long run and get patched out.

Edit: Just reread the post which promises that this Tues into larger mechanics not discussed yet. Ok, but without context I'm stuck with what I know as per the above. Might be worthwhile explaining the big picture before launching minor additional mechanic explanations.

How it'll affect you will depend upon how you prefer to play of course. As you note, more info will be coming but here's my current expectations:

In my case, I prefer to stay within the admin cap. Which generally means getting tech/traditions that increase admin cap as quickly as possible. This gives me an entirely new way to get admin cap. Previously, if I had hit the admin cap before I had reached the tech repeatables then I would have to work hard to minimalise my admin cap, which isn't that fun. This way, I can adjust my expansion style more to the situation I find myself in. Eg, if there's lots of opportunities in expansion I can grab them and invest in extra beaurocrates to counter this until I hit the tech repeatables instead... Of course, I could just take the admin penalty on the chin instead.

Here's another consideration: let's say you prefer to use force. If you literally conquer an empire that means taking on the admin cap burden as well so it can in fact be more efficient to turn them into vassals or tributaries. With this new option, on conquering another empire (or some of it) you could convert some of their buildings (or your buildings) to increase your admin cap, if necessary. If the they already have such buildings then you'd get the extra admin cap as soon as you conquer the planet.
 
Lovely, even more Machine Population Traits I won't be able to afford! It's not like they didn't nerf our population's individual value when they reworked our Diplomacy tree and proceed to never compensate us, or that we have less trait points to start than organic populations, or that we don't benefit from certain technologies like expanded synapsic networks, or that we don't have an Ascension path, or...

Okay but seriously, can we please get some additional trait points if you are going to add even more traits we'll barely be able to afford, what with Efficient Processors still costing 3 for a 5% increase?

Machines have 7 trait points I wouldn't consider that "not enough". Also efficient processors for 3 is a good spot considering the +15% take 2. It also affects advanced resources like alloys or crystals.
 
Here is a wish relating to Admin Cap and a potential Diplomacy DLC: If I am exceeding my admin cap, that means things get lost, information not processed and my bureaucrats will miss things more easily, so should enemy infiltrators and spies not have a greater chance at success?

My administration is already buried under too much work, it takes way too long to identify potential issues and formulate a proper reaction. Much like in Warhammer 40K, where it can take centuries, before the central Imperial government takes note of an emerging threat, which carries the obvious grimdark consequences. Also yay for bureaucracy (+Archive) worlds! SciFi-Tropes are good.

Yes, it would be cool if sprawl exceeding admin cap would increase your susceptibility to spy actions and similar. It would also be cool if having large institutions like a massive secret police or diplomatic corps would increase your sprawl (since those institutions would increase bureaucracy).
 
Machines have 7 trait points I wouldn't consider that "not enough". Also efficient processors for 3 is a good spot considering the +15% take 2. It also affects advanced resources like alloys or crystals.
Again, Efficient Processors costs 3 of those 7 points and we only get a 5% increase for it. Enhanced Memory (our version of Talented) is still 2 points and we don't get the Capacity Boosters policy meaning we need that to hit level 10 on all leaders, Logic Engines (our version of Intelligent) is still 2 points, we do not have an Erudite Equivalent, And Superconductive/Power Drills are still 2/15% despite us not having Very Strong to increase those numbers. So you can either have Super Efficient Scientists/Leaders, Super Efficient Gatherers, or Effient Housing/Upkeep that's not even on the level of Synthetics without those traits.

Mathematically, Machine Populations are not equal to Organic Populations as the game scales on thanks to superior trait points (they start with 1 more trait point than us, and get their respective Ascension paths which mean... either they get Bio Ascension and become individualized monsters of production, they become Synthetic and get more traits and reduced upkeep compared to the machines they are trying to replicate, or they become Psychic and have access to better technologies in addition to having better scientists.)

All of that, keeping in mind you don't ALSO get Uplifting, Alien Box, Brain Worms, The Worm...

We used to have a +1 trait in our Diplomacy Tree. In 2.2 they got rid of that and never gave us anything for it. Just give us an early trait point or add a rare technology, that's all I want to see if we are adding another god damn trait I can't afford.
 
If coordinator jobs are the source of admin cap for MIs then you won't encourage them to play tall, because you can only have a certain amount of coordinator jobs per planet.

You get some through the capital building, the planet unique uplink nodes and one per twenty from the properity tradition. This would only be another incentive for MIs to grab any planet they can.
I think they should add nexus buildings providing coordinator jobs like bureaucrate jobs work for meatbag empires
 
Again, Efficient Processors costs 3 of those 7 points and we only get a 5% increase for it. Enhanced Memory (our version of Talented) is still 2 points and we don't get the Capacity Boosters policy meaning we need that to hit level 10 on all leaders, Logic Engines (our version of Intelligent) is still 2 points, we do not have an Erudite Equivalent, And Superconductive/Power Drills are still 2/15% despite us not having Very Strong to increase those numbers. So you can either have Super Efficient Scientists/Leaders, Super Efficient Gatherers, or Effient Housing/Upkeep that's not even on the level of Synthetics without those traits.

Mathematically, Machine Populations are not equal to Organic Populations as the game scales on thanks to superior trait points (they start with 1 more trait point than us, and get their respective Ascension paths which mean... either they get Bio Ascension and become individualized monsters of production, they become Synthetic and get more traits and reduced upkeep compared to the machines they are trying to replicate, or they become Psychic and have access to better technologies in addition to having better scientists.)

All of that, keeping in mind you don't ALSO get Uplifting, Alien Box, The Worm...

We used to have a +1 trait in our Diplomacy Tree. In 2.2 they got rid of that and never gave us anything for it. Just give us an early trait point or add a rare technology, that's all I want to see if we are adding another god damn trait I can't afford.

So what you get luxurious which is free trait points
Mass Produced grant +15% growth speed for only 1 trait point

Stop ignoring this and stop complaining about traits because Machines have nothing to complain about. They are the most broken empire type in the game since 2.3 and its about time something gets nerfed about them.
 
Machine Empires are the last ones to complain about being weak.
While ME are absolutely not weak, they are kind of meh about how their planets are - full of POP-supporting buildings(because for some reason Machines need more POPs to maintains compared to non-GC, which makes no sense). Now there would be another boring mandatory building to support that ME should be about - expansion (because you can crank less useful POPs on Machine planet). Buildings must be more unique and "rare" resource production should be reworked.
 
Yes, it would be cool if sprawl exceeding admin cap would increase your susceptibility to spy actions and similar. It would also be cool if having large institutions like a massive secret police or diplomatic corps would increase your sprawl (since those institutions would increase bureaucracy).

That sounds suspiciously like a hint of things yet to come.
 
I think they should add nexus buildings providing coordinator jobs like bureaucrate jobs work for meatbag empires

It would be better to add a coordinator job to maintenance buildings. If you have a large planet like a ring world or ecu (going tall) you already use up most building slots for maintenance depots and sentinal posts.
 
So what you get luxurious which is free trait points
Mass Produced grant +15% growth speed for only 1 trait point

Stop ignoring this and stop complaining about traits because Machines have nothing to complain about. They are the most broken empire type in the game since 2.3 and its about time something gets nerfed about them.
Yeah, remember when Repugnant was basically a free trait point? Just threw that on Genocidals because who cares, not like you weren't killing everyone anyway, and then they eventually changed that and now it's one of the worst traits you can pick. if anything Paradox should probably rework Luxurious and Recycled just because they are so low impact for two free trait points and trap respectively.
Mass Produced... Normal Populations get Nutritional Plentitude AND Encourage Population Growth, 10% and 25% increases respectively, for a little more food. We don't have any Machine Equivalent to these. I'm playing Machines so I don't have to make farms but that's definitely not to my benefit because I can't click a button to increase population growth for a few more energy credits.
 
I obviously don't know yet how these changes will actually end up playing, but I really like them in theory. Imperial Prerogative no longer being useless is good, and if the pacifist ethic will also get a percentage based bonus to admin cap instead of the flat bonus, this might finally be enough of a buff for them to be worth picking again.

With the overwhelming part of your sprawl coming from pops, the docile trait would need to cost a LOT in order to not just be a mandatory dont-suck pick. Also, if your bureaucratic worlds can increase your admin cap faster than newly conquered worlds consume it, then the "tall playstyle" will obviously no longer exist.
 
I'm playing Machines so I don't have to make farms but that's definitely not to my benefit because I can't click a button to increase population growth for a few more energy credits.

"Plays Machine empire"
- Complains about population growth.
?????
Have you ever actually watched pop counts and growth of empires? Aswell as getting the Cybrex war forge for 50% pop growth boost?

Synth Ascencion is obviously ridicolous and should get nerfed because it grows at 2-3 times that of any other empire. But so are normal Machine empires. DA starts with around 6 pop growth.

Also Machine empire technicians being 50% better is a huge deal, its so much better than making 6 food.