Stellaris Dev Diary #218 - Plantoids Gameplay

[Drinko]

Plants usually need sunlight and nutrients(including CO2). Sun they get for free. So they only need nutrients which is different types of minerals. So them consuming minerals and possibly even producing food actually makes sense.

Although people can be fertilizer also.

 

[ZeeHero]

Raditropic sounds good if you want to be a plantoid hive mind of galactic janitors cleaning up and beautifying tomb worlds

 

[majikero]

Food to alloy is great. Hello ringworld forge worlds. Budding for void dwellers seems to have potential.

 

[Homer2101]

Contrary to popular belief, this species does not sustain itself by consuming ancient communication equipment.

Is this a Girls' Last Tour reference?

ANYways, looks like a very nice set of changes. Especially glad to see DLC content getting improvements and updates.

 

[permeakra]

That's a fair point. With the higher upkeep, mineral costs for alloys scale better with resource buildings than food costs with resource buildings. (Upgraded resource buildings +2 to base production)

Nuh. Hydroponic farms can be built everywhere, and ringworlds have agricultural districts unlike mining districts. Meaning that with food your alloy production isn't capped by your limited mineral income.

 

[Less2]

Nuh. Hydroponic farms can be built everywhere, and ringworlds have agricultural districts unlike mining districts. Meaning that with food your alloy production isn't capped by your limited mineral income.

Hydroponic farms while nice are heavily limited in how many you can make while Ringworlds are so late that you have infinite of all the basic resources by then anyway. This does work interestingly with the Ringworld start though, basically removing its one intended handicap of limited alloy production.

 

[ZeeHero]

Yeah biggest issue with ringworlds is by the time you're building them theres no special benefit to using them over a few ecumenopoli.

 

[Ferrus Animus]

Nuh. Hydroponic farms can be built everywhere, and ringworlds have agricultural districts unlike mining districts. Meaning that with food your alloy production isn't capped by your limited mineral income.

While technically minerals are more limited than food, the bottleneck coming midgame are more the amount of pops you can put to making alloys, so using food instead wont result in much difference.

 

[Primarch Victus]

Now we just need an organic ship set so we can **pretend** that we have bio ship

Preferably, a shipset like the one used for the Unfallen in Endless Space 2: https://endless-space-2.fandom.com/wiki/The_Unfallen/Ships

 

[Primarch Victus]

Lithoid and Necroid, which are the benchmark for making old DLC better, both have an Origin which is lacking there. Or at least it seems there won't be an origin for this DLC. But it may just be that they didn't show it.

Also I personnally would like to see the Plantoid and Fungoid ship set revisited to looks more unique and awesome.

And I guess some people still want the bioships. Although you kinda can do it with the civic and pretending you "alloy" is biomaterial. Just don't look at your ship and it works.

Anyway it's not that it is bad. Far from it. Just a little tiny bit under the announced benchmark (Lithoid / Necroid). Nothing critical but still.

Well, I usually like to think that the Avian shipset is biomechanical in nature -- you know, like Moya in Farscape: https://farscape.fandom.com/wiki/Moya

 

[henryk5pio]

I have read the entire thread carefully and have some comments:

1) I agree that the feature of Phototrophic "itself is weak and nobody will take it, because it will lower our energy level and there will be problems with it. If we sew it permanently for fungoids and plantoids, as in lithoids, it will be a real obstacle. start, which may discourage potential interest in the game with fungoids and plantoids I suggest to set it to 50% food and 25/30/40% upkeep energy, so that there will be some profit from it.

2) Idyllic bloom is too situational, limited to one of the nine basic types of planets.

3) Catalytic Processing is great but as someone pointed out, mathematically it's still better to go into minerals so I have a suggestion:
3.1) Add to Catalytic Processing the option that buildings and space stations that we build for minerals can also be built for alloys in a ratio of 2 minerals = 1 alloys.
3.2) Add another civic only available for Hive Mind fungoid / plantoid that would work like technocracy but on Agri-Drone. This would bring us back to the times when the former Inward Perfection of Agrarian Idyll built us unity on agricultural buildings, which would make players want to build as many agricultural districts as possible and choose planets with wet climate as starting. This can be explained by the fact that fungoids and plantoids are very close to the planet they live on and it is reflected in their love for agriculture, which at the same time builds the unity of these communities with the world they live on.

I propose this because in this way you can create the opposite of ME / Lithoid HM, which mostly focuses on energy and minerals, setting aside food and consumables.

I also have a modest request, can you add Lithoid Hive World personalities for the Plantoid? Normal looks perfect for fungoids, but I don't really see plants in it, and this lithoid one has a lot of green in it and could even quite fit plantoids.

 

[Objulen]

Nuh. Hydroponic farms can be built everywhere, and ringworlds have agricultural districts unlike mining districts. Meaning that with food your alloy production isn't capped by your limited mineral income.

So, there are a few things to unpack with this reply:

• First, my comment was about per-worker output. Farm jobs scale massively with Ring Worlds, but that's a late game tech you won't have for most of your play through. And even then, Ring World base production per job won't be better.
• Second, with the overall pop reduction, having extra jobs isn't as important as pop efficiency. Having a bunch of extra jobs doesn't matter so much when you don't have the pops yet to work them.
• As far as overall job production goes, Hydroponic Farms provide a quick fix, but they're not a good overall solution for long-term economic growth. Each building only provides 2 farming jobs. Now, if you really need the jobs - and the jobs are worth more in Catalytic economies - then they're an option, but you're going to get 1 district's worth of jobs per building slot, with no housing. During the early gaming you're going to have limited building slots and labs, resource buildings, entertainers, admin, etc. are going to be competing for those slots, so you're not going to have much room for hydroponic farms.
  
  Once your empire becomes more established, given the value of farming jobs in a Catalytic empire, it's probably worth it to build hydroponic farms on your dedicated ag worlds. But at that point, other empires can invest in orbital habitats for minerals, which provide 9 jobs to start with and expand to 17 jobs with the processing building. They're more expensive, but much more flexible and reliable than dedicated agg worlds, until you get Ring Worlds.
  
  Catalytic farming will really take off with terraforming and Gaia worlds to colonize the lushest planets in their territory.
• You'll also get minerals from space, but we'll zero those out - Catalytic empires can use them for buildings and districts, and standard economies will need to do so as well. You can only get a small amount of food from space, so it's not really worth mentioning (Hydroponic Bays). You're also going to need minerals for Consumer Goods or Research unless you're an ME. Catalytic economies will definitely take pressure off of empires with limit mining districts, but the reverse can be said of empires that have limited farming districts, even with Hydroponic Bays. Overall, the RNG gods will probably favor Catalytic economies, since you usually get a spread of districts on a planet, with minimal needs for food. HM's will probably benefit the most.

Also, don't forget that Catalytic Processing is a Civic - there's a cost to taking it. Mining Guilds may be an overall more optimal choice for SEs in the long run, since that Civic will make the job output ratio for mineral:alloys even better than it already is. That's not to say that Catalytic Processing isn't a great civic for SEs, but it requires optimizing your build around food production to really take advantage of, like taking Agrarian Idyll.

Catalytic Processing will probably be the best for HM's - their research costs don't scale as well as CG costs for SEs over the course of the game, and more to the point, they don't have anything resembling Mining Guilds, so there's not a directly more optimal alternative available to them, and their economy already prioritizes food over SEs anyway.

On the other hand, I don't think I can recommend it for MEs. Not only are the two ME types that need some food specifically prohibited from taking it - the two types that would really have any reason to consider it - MEs have Rockbreakers, i.e. Mining Guilds for machines. I don't see why a standard ME would use a Civic slot to add an extra component to their economy that Machine Worlds don't support instead of just taking the Civic that improves mineral production.

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

So, there are a few things to unpack with this reply:

• First, my comment was about per-worker output. Farm jobs scale massively with Ring Worlds, but that's a late game tech you won't have for most of your play through. And even then, Ring World base production per job won't be better.
• Second, with the overall pop reduction, having extra jobs isn't as important as pop efficiency. Having a bunch of extra jobs doesn't matter so much when you don't have the pops yet to work them.
• As far as overall job production goes, Hydroponic Farms provide a quick fix, but they're not a good overall solution for long-term economic growth. Each building only provides 2 farming jobs. Now, if you really need the jobs - and the jobs are worth more in Catalytic economies - then they're an option, but you're going to get 1 district's worth of jobs per building slot, with no housing. During the early gaming you're going to have limited building slots and labs, resource buildings, entertainers, admin, etc. are going to be competing for those slots, so you're not going to have much room for hydroponic farms.
  
  Once your empire becomes more established, given the value of farming jobs in a Catalytic empire, it's probably worth it to build hydroponic farms on your dedicated ag worlds. But at that point, other empires can invest in orbital habitats for minerals, which provide 9 jobs to start with and expand to 17 jobs with the processing building. They're more expensive, but much more flexible and reliable than dedicated agg worlds, until you get Ring Worlds.
  
  Catalytic farming will really take off with terraforming and Gaia worlds to colonize the lushest planets in their territory.
• You'll also get minerals from space, but we'll zero those out - Catalytic empires can use them for buildings and districts, and standard economies will need to do so as well. You can only get a small amount of food from space, so it's not really worth mentioning (Hydroponic Bays). You're also going to need minerals for Consumer Goods or Research unless you're an ME. Catalytic economies will definitely take pressure off of empires with limit mining districts, but the reverse can be said of empires that have limited farming districts, even with Hydroponic Bays. Overall, the RNG gods will probably favor Catalytic economies, since you usually get a spread of districts on a planet, with minimal needs for food. HM's will probably benefit the most.

Also, don't forget that Catalytic Processing is a Civic - there's a cost to taking it. Mining Guilds may be an overall more optimal choice for SEs in the long run, since that Civic will make the job output ratio for mineral:alloys even better than it already is. That's not to say that Catalytic Processing isn't a great civic for SEs, but it requires optimizing your build around food production to really take advantage of, like taking Agrarian Idyll.

Catalytic Processing will probably be the best for HM's - their research costs don't scale as well as CG costs for SEs over the course of the game, and more to the point, they don't have anything resembling Mining Guilds, so there's not a directly more optimal alternative available to them, and their economy already prioritizes food over SEs anyway.

On the other hand, I don't think I can recommend it for MEs. Not only are the two ME types that need some food specifically prohibited from taking it - the two types that would really have any reason to consider it - MEs have Rockbreakers, i.e. Mining Guilds for machines. I don't see why a standard ME would use a Civic slot to add an extra component to their economy that Machine Worlds don't support instead of just taking the Civic that improves mineral production.

Catalytic Procession is definately going to be the choice for Hiveminds. And especially for Necrophage Hiveminds, since the slaves will be livestock slaves. Because Hiveminds have a huge issue:

Hiveminds are really bad at snowballing the game. You know your standard game vs AI. You rush the next AI, you take their pops. Suddenly you doubled your pop count and snowball the game from there. But as a Hivemind? You can't do that. Either you eat the pops and they die, giving you a bunch of food or you keep them around as livestock pops, which give you a ton of food, destroy your stability and add crime.

With the ability to turn food into alloys, Hiveminds can finally snowball after conquest instead of having to wait until completing Biological Ascension.

Also your comment made me realize again just how terrible most of the Hivemind civics are. Even Machine empires get a civic for +1 Mineral output. This is a top tier civic but why is this not a thing for Hiveminds? Its nice that finally Hiveminds are getting some help. But there is still lots of work to be done. Because the new trait Radiotrophic, which goes well with Tomb worlds start is way better for non-Hiveminds. Why is that? Because Paradox disabled Horizon Signal for Hiveminds. You can never gain multiple Tomb worlds as a Hivemind from this event. This needs to be changed. Especially since the new Custian Team wants to properly balance the game. And having equal event content is a huge part of balance, especially if its the most powerful event in the entire game.

 

[majikero]

Honestly, you shouldn't be using Horizon Signal as being part of any standard game. Its a fun thing for a pretty fun reward. But its a rare thing for fun normally unless you trigger it deliberately. If you want Hives to have access to making more tomb worlds, they should be able to have Armageddon bombardment if they start as a post-apocalypse survivor since bombing a planet into a tomb isn't much of a concern for them.

 

[Objulen]

Catalytic Procession is definately going to be the choice for Hiveminds. And especially for Necrophage Hiveminds, since the slaves will be livestock slaves. Because Hiveminds have a huge issue:

Hiveminds are really bad at snowballing the game. You know your standard game vs AI. You rush the next AI, you take their pops. Suddenly you doubled your pop count and snowball the game from there. But as a Hivemind? You can't do that. Either you eat the pops and they die, giving you a bunch of food or you keep them around as livestock pops, which give you a ton of food, destroy your stability and add crime.

With the ability to turn food into alloys, Hiveminds can finally snowball after conquest instead of having to wait until completing Biological Ascension.

Also your comment made me realize again just how terrible most of the Hivemind civics are. Even Machine empires get a civic for +1 Mineral output. This is a top tier civic but why is this not a thing for Hiveminds? Its nice that finally Hiveminds are getting some help. But there is still lots of work to be done. Because the new trait Radiotrophic, which goes well with Tomb worlds start is way better for non-Hiveminds. Why is that? Because Paradox disabled Horizon Signal for Hiveminds. You can never gain multiple Tomb worlds as a Hivemind from this event. This needs to be changed. Especially since the new Custian Team wants to properly balance the game. And having equal event content is a huge part of balance, especially if its the most powerful event in the entire game.

I'm not sure how great Radiotrophic will be. While it sucks they don't get Horizon Signal, you don't get that every game, I don't think balancing strategies around triggered events you may not even get as an SE. The real question is how long it'll take to "terraform" worlds with Armageddon Bombardment once you get Become the Crisis. If it's a few years, that's amazing for early game expansion - 100% Habitability terraforming. If it's decades, it's much less useful.

HM Civics have been lackluster overall, but they are getting better over time. Ascetic is effectively mandatory for HMs, due to the number of pops they have to invest on Amenities. That plus One Vision cuts 25% of your amenities cost - add in Charismatic and a single drone goes from supporting 4 pops to ~6.67 pops cutting about ~40% of the dead weight from your infrastructure. It was important even before the pop changes, but it's critical since the reduction to pop numbers. It also helps larger number of basic resource jobs HMs get per planet.

Empath is really good if you're not playing to snowball. Extra envoys and diplo bonuses to manage neighbors is always welcome, and now they can become extra spies. If you're playing a peaceful HM, it's really strong. Materialist is also decent, given the Stability buffs, which Gestalts tend to have a hard time getting. Subsume Will has become more useful with addition of the influence costs to moving drones around. Subspace Ephapse is nice if you're snowballing, but a bit bland. The rest are OK to useless, especially Natural Neural Networks, what with the changes to pop growth.

Budding is probably the best addition for HMs overall. They already have pop production from Spawning Pools, which makes adding more to it even better, and the bonus grows with planet size. Combining the right traits to get Charismatic and Budding - 5 points - won't be easy, and you can't really combine it with Radiotrophic, but you can add budding later in the game. Non-Adaptive would be a go-too choice if the Radiotrophic combo works.

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

That plus One Vision cuts 25% of your amenities cost

I tried using One Vision but its not worth it. Yes stacking reduced amenity usage is good. But its not worth an Ascension perk, atleast not early on. Tech Ascendancy is just too good to pass up. Or +2 Edict Capacity, which is way stronger than One Vision anyway. Because you want all those 3 ressource edicts running for that 50% base output bonus. I have added One Vision as one my last Ascension perks but when you compare all your income and science output the Ascension perk is not a huge deal compared to Tech Ascendancy and +2 Edict Capacity.

In case you are using Stefan's balance mod, which we consider mandatory to be able to enjoy Stellaris in singleplayer aswell, then Tomb World Origin is useful for Hiveminds. Because in Stefan's balance mod, Tomb World Origin is actually a good origin, providing a reduction in Amenity usage and increasing Job output overall.

 

[Less2]

Budding is probably the best addition for HMs overall. They already have pop production from Spawning Pools, which makes adding more to it even better, and the bonus grows with planet size. Combining the right traits to get Charismatic and Budding - 5 points - won't be easy, and you can't really combine it with Radiotrophic, but you can add budding later in the game. Non-Adaptive would be a go-too choice if the Radiotrophic combo works.

Budding is just a worse Fast Breeders from what I can tell. For 3 points each pop on the planet gives +0.02, while Fast Breeders at 2 points gives +0.3, and with optimized planet carrying capacity gets another +50% to be +0.45. So considering Budding costs 50% more points it needs to hit between +0.45 and +0.675 growth to break even. This means an average of 22 to 33 pops per planet. How long is that going to take? A pretty long time, lets be honest. How much longer to make up for lost growth? Way too long. No one invests in late game growth with their starting traits.

It's fine later on, and you could do a gamey move where you make 99% of your pops budding and then disable their growth so fast breeders are growing with the budding bonus.

 

[OnyxAbussos]

LOVE IT!!!
Thank you.

 

[Connacht]

Phototrophic: Is mutually exclusive with Radiotrophic, and changes some of your food upkeep into energy upkeep. Requires your species to be Plantoid or Fungoid.

Hello, as a biologist I would like to point out that:

1- Fungi aren't phototrophs. Moreover, they aren't even closely related to plants while actually they are to animals (phylogenesis, biochemistry and genetics). It is inaccurate to treat fungoids and plantoids as similar in their possible capabilities, if they are based on fungi and plants. I'd rather give further characterization to fungoids with traits that could be used to customize them as symbiotic lifeforms, particularly with some parasitic or parasitoid traits (e.g. Cordyceps, which inspired The Last of Us), or mutualistic traits (e.g. mycorrhizae), or even both;

2- Phototrophic organisms convert light into metabolic energy (e.g. to produce carbohydrates through photosynthesis). That means that they need to be exposed to sunlight, not that they need to be connected to an energy grid with power plants that are required for their upkeep just like pops eat food. I would change to a simple reduction in food upkeep, or replace it with something else;

3- Maybe we can allow the phototrophic trait for fungoids because we consider them in a symbiotic relationship with a photosynthetic organism (e.g. lichens), and make a bit of abstraction about their sustenance. But then there are some cases of symbiotic association between animals and photosynthetic dinoflagellates (e.g. zooxanthellae within corals or sponges), animals that acquire chloroplasts from the algae they eat (e.g. Elysa chlorotica), and animals that possess pigments that are suggested to be capable of accumulating small quantities of energy from exposition to light (i.e. Vespa orientalis, although it's still debated, but nothing prevents this to inspire a videogame). So I wouldn't force a very abstract "phototrophic" trait to be restricted to plants. What if I want to play a molluscoid species that lives in symbiosis with photosynthetic algae, reducing their need for food?

§

I am oversimplifying, and I didn't read the whole topic to check if someone already said something similar, but I hope that this might give ideas either to developers or modders.

 

[majikero]

I'm amazed at the amount of people that forget the lightbulb exist when they say how it makes no sense that spacefaring plant people need energy to power sun grade lightbulbs.