Stellaris Dev Diary #237 - Reworking Unity, Part One

[Berenoy]

I doubt wide will suffer too much. Most 4X games struggle to make tall a viable gameplay path when compared to wide and it always seems no matter how much help tall gets, wide always pulls ahead. If this is pulled off right, wide will retain it's innate advantages but tall should be increasingly viable.

I hope so, because the changes are so drastic that I'm afraid my playstyle will actually be dead.

 

[InvisibleBison]

If you built six top of the range research campuses spread around the US and that was the sum total of research spending then you're going to run into some problems. Each lab will need their own set of everything, otherwise you'll have researchers wasting time and money flying across the US to borrow another lab's equipment or you're going to have to divert funding to telepresence and so on. You're going to have duplicated effort because nobody knows what anyone else is doing, it's difficult to collaborate between campuses outside of organised conferences, and moving from one lab to another would be a major upheaval.

If you built the same six research campuses in Liechtenstein they'd practically be within walking distance of each other. If there was an exceedingly expensive but rarely used piece of equipment you could buy just one or two and spend the money saved on duplicates something else. Different labs probably meet for lunch once a week and going to work in another lab just means a longer commute.

You could get the same efficiency effect in a country the size of the US by building all your colleges and research campuses in one section of one state, but now you have 95% of voters believing covid is caused by witches because they've never even seen a microscope.

The reason this isn't the current state of the US is because the US has a big economy and can throw big money and big populations around to get past the inefficiencies and existence taxes of being big. Liechtenstein has a population of 40,000 while there are over 180,000 full college professors alone across the US. You literally could not spend the US research budget in Liechtenstein. You'd run out of people.

That's the point of sprawl. Same as bigger empires have more total energy upkeep so part of their extra energy production just goes toward keeping pace, bigger empires also have higher tech costs so part of their increased research capacity goes toward making up inefficiencies. If I'm 10 times as big as you and spend the same percentage of my budget on research as you I will still research faster than you. Just not 10 times faster.

I think you are overestimating the importance of facilities being located close to one another and underestimating the usefulness of having lots of different teams working on the same problem.

 

[TSBasilisk]

Honestly, my biggest concern with removing ways to generate admin cap will be the return of Swiss-cheesing (ignoring low value systems as to not increase empire sprawl). There needs to be some mechanic to make that not be the optimal strategy. Sprawl by sector instead of by system, maybe?

True, this is a worry I saw raised on Reddit as well. Maybe unoccupied systems that are within a sector have no sprawl penalty, while systems outside the sectors do? You'd have Swiss cheese fringes, but as you settled outwards those would fill in.

 

[Darrenb209]

I think you are overestimating the importance of facilities being located close to one another and underestimating the usefulness of having lots of different teams working on the same problem.

While I agree with you on the former, at least on the scale and timeframes that current civilisations operate on, I strongly disagree with the latter.

On paper, throwing more teams at a problem should make it be resolved faster, with the only issue being diminishing returns eventually hitting "Adding another team doesn't provide any real gain at this point"

In practice, that is not how it works.

Teams, like people, work best at a certain level assigned to a project.

Below that level, they cooperate, above that level they compete.

And once they start competing what you get is conflict, arguments, people rushing, paths being tread and retread by dozens of different groups or doing something completely stupid in desperation to be the group that wins.

It basically ends up like that phrase about too many cooks.

So rather than even diminishing gains from adding more teams past that point, you instead see increasing loss of efficiency for every extra team or group or person you assign.

 

[Idle America]

I like it, I like it! Here's hoping for a factions rework in the near future!

 

[Rostyk.96]

so, to make unity more relevant, you just replaced other resources with it, as a costs?

why do we have to pay for leaders with unity instead of energy (current currency), how is that makes sense? or why do we need unity to build megastructures?

maybe replace research points with unity then? i'm sure it will make it even more relevant

i even got an idea for new civic, its like catalitic processing, but instead it will convert unity into alloys

 

[Drakonn]

I was just about to start a new game dang it!

 

[Bezborg]

I was just about to start a new game dang it!

Oh god I know what you mean haha.

But this is months away

 

[Echo Candor One]

so, to make unity more relevant, you just replaced other resources with it, as a costs?

why do we have to pay for leaders with unity instead of energy (current currency), how is that makes sense? or why do we need unity to build megastructures?

maybe replace research points with unity then? i'm sure it will make it even more relevant

i even got an idea for new civic, its like catalitic processing, but instead it will convert unity into alloys

 

[Rostyk.96]

 

[oreopirate]

If you built six top of the range research campuses spread around the US and that was the sum total of research spending then you're going to run into some problems. Each lab will need their own set of everything, otherwise you'll have researchers wasting time and money flying across the US to borrow another lab's equipment or you're going to have to divert funding to telepresence and so on. You're going to have duplicated effort because nobody knows what anyone else is doing, it's difficult to collaborate between campuses outside of organised conferences, and moving from one lab to another would be a major upheaval.

If you built the same six research campuses in Liechtenstein they'd practically be within walking distance of each other. If there was an exceedingly expensive but rarely used piece of equipment you could buy just one or two and spend the money saved on duplicates something else. Different labs probably meet for lunch once a week and going to work in another lab just means a longer commute.

You could get the same efficiency effect in a country the size of the US by building all your colleges and research campuses in one section of one state, but now you have 95% of voters believing covid is caused by witches because they've never even seen a microscope.

The reason this isn't the current state of the US is because the US has a big economy and can throw big money and big populations around to get past the inefficiencies and existence taxes of being big. Liechtenstein has a population of 40,000 while there are over 180,000 full college professors alone across the US. You literally could not spend the US research budget in Liechtenstein. You'd run out of people.

That's the point of sprawl. Same as bigger empires have more total energy upkeep so part of their extra energy production just goes toward keeping pace, bigger empires also have higher tech costs so part of their increased research capacity goes toward making up inefficiencies. If I'm 10 times as big as you and spend the same percentage of my budget on research as you I will still research faster than you. Just not 10 times faster.

Wonderfully put.

I think you are overestimating the importance of facilities being located close to one another and underestimating the usefulness of having lots of different teams working on the same problem.

While more people sometimes helps, I think you are underestimating the importance of communication in the sciences. Because you have a variety of independent teams who each work on a single problem and communicate their findings. Big breakthroughs usually comes a synthesis of many studies and smaller advancements. Here is where distance comes to play. Larger empires will need more invisible infastructure, like relay stations, comms beacons, etc. Even stellaris makes reference to communication between planets taking time.
And if you want to be a stickler about it, it's not more bodies on research that helps in the slightest. It's having more points of view, more specialties. Having people who can look at a problem in different ways or from differing view points. Of course, this will never be directly translated over, because it would make Xenophilic societies way overpowered.

 

[syneti]

I already build unity focused empires, which focus on research as well. So this will be interesting to see in the months to come.

What will become of the unity based edicts after finishing ascension perks? Which are currently in-game... I love the Megastructure build speed one so I can build 3 megastructures at a time.

 

[Kapi96]

I really dislike that it won't be possible to increase admin cap any more. Having to employ a tonne of extra researchers to get the same result is just completely unrealistic. More researchers IRL means more chance of a scientific breakthrough, why should it be the opposite in the game?

The unity changes sound great however!

 

[syneti]

While more people sometimes helps, I think you are underestimating the importance of communication in the sciences. Because you have a variety of independent teams who each work on a single problem and communicate their findings. Big breakthroughs usually comes a synthesis of many studies and smaller advancements. Here is where distance comes to play. Larger empires will need more invisible infastructure, like relay stations, comms beacons, etc. Even stellaris makes reference to communication between planets taking time.
And if you want to be a stickler about it, it's not more bodies on research that helps in the slightest. It's having more points of view, more specialties. Having people who can look at a problem in different ways or from differing view points. Of course, this will never be directly translated over, because it would make Xenophilic societies way overpowered.

We have a lot research working on the same problem world wide. however this lead to disagreements in findings when spread out. A closer knit society in research would have access to the same sources easier which would lead to less disagreements.

An example in real life which springs to mind I do apologise in advance this is only an example I feel most will know. And this would translate to the importance of a closer knit research group yielding better research finds.

Deltacron - Due to research groups all spread over the world most disagree with the findings of the Cypriot research group. Yet research groups closer to this source all see the same findings the further you go from the source these research groups don't agree and call it a laboratory cross contamination

 

[Bezborg]

I really dislike that it won't be possible to increase admin cap any more. Having to employ a tonne of extra researchers to get the same result is just completely unrealistic. More researchers IRL means more chance of a scientific breakthrough, why should it be the opposite in the game?

The unity changes sound great however!

It used to have sense to dedicate entire worlds to administrate a vast empire, which is a popular sci fi trope... Now, no longer? Kinda lame, I agree.

 

[syneti]

It used to have sense to dedicate entire worlds to administrate a vast empire, which is a popular sci fi trope... Now, no longer? Kinda lame, I agree.

actually they still would be dedicated but produce unity instead.

Edit:- Bureaucrats, Priests, Managers, Synapse Drones, and Coordinators will be the primary sources of Unity for various empire types. Culture Workers have been removed.

 

[Bezborg]

actually they still would be dedicated but produce unity instead.

Edit:- Bureaucrats, Priests, Managers, Synapse Drones, and Coordinators will be the primary sources of Unity for various empire types. Culture Workers have been removed.

I guess... But it's different. It's now mana generation, not capacity generation.

I'm not sure why, but my gut feeling likes one and dislikes the other.

 

[syneti]

I guess... But it's different. It's now mana generation, not capacity generation.

I'm not sure why, but my gut feeling likes one and dislikes the other.

There are things which make me go hmm not sure. But I do trust the devs, they've made such a great game thus far.

 

[Bezborg]

There are things which make me go hmm not sure. But I do trust the devs, they've made such a great game thus far.

A thing I definitely don't like is the edict fund... so convoluted, gamey and clunky. It's "ugly", design-wise, obscure. I can't imagine being a new player, to be honest.

 

[blahmaster6k]

If you built six top of the range research campuses spread around the US and that was the sum total of research spending then you're going to run into some problems. Each lab will need their own set of everything, otherwise you'll have researchers wasting time and money flying across the US to borrow another lab's equipment or you're going to have to divert funding to telepresence and so on. You're going to have duplicated effort because nobody knows what anyone else is doing, it's difficult to collaborate between campuses outside of organised conferences, and moving from one lab to another would be a major upheaval.

If you built the same six research campuses in Liechtenstein they'd practically be within walking distance of each other. If there was an exceedingly expensive but rarely used piece of equipment you could buy just one or two and spend the money saved on duplicates something else. Different labs probably meet for lunch once a week and going to work in another lab just means a longer commute.

You could get the same efficiency effect in a country the size of the US by building all your colleges and research campuses in one section of one state, but now you have 95% of voters believing covid is caused by witches because they've never even seen a microscope.

The reason this isn't the current state of the US is because the US has a big economy and can throw big money and big populations around to get past the inefficiencies and existence taxes of being big. Liechtenstein has a population of 40,000 while there are over 180,000 full college professors alone across the US. You literally could not spend the US research budget in Liechtenstein. You'd run out of people.

That's the point of sprawl. Same as bigger empires have more total energy upkeep so part of their extra energy production just goes toward keeping pace, bigger empires also have higher tech costs so part of their increased research capacity goes toward making up inefficiencies. If I'm 10 times as big as you and spend the same percentage of my budget on research as you I will still research faster than you. Just not 10 times faster.

Honestly, you need look no further than the American F-35 project. Instead of having centralized production, the plane sources subcomponent manufacturing from 45 different states mainly because local politicians wanted to be able to say that the project would create jobs for the people they represent, regardless of how inefficient it was. The F-35 is a great plane, but it costs way more than it needed to because of politics and bureaucracy in a large country.