Stellaris Dev Diary #289 - Hide and Seek

[Masked Ermine]

As I understand, gathering enough military intel about an enemy empire will allow you to pinpoint their cloaked fleets, which is a great workaround for those empires unlucky enough to lose the sensor tech lottery (still, I would love to hear more from the devs about how espionage interacts with the cloaking mechanics).

Again, wasting influence and envoys to do espionage. Stop making espionage necessary....It's great that it isn't necessary so I don't have to fuss around with it. The worst thing about espionage game mechanics is that they divert attention away from gameplay to micromanage espionage...the nice thing about Stellaris's espionage is that it is completely ignorable....even if someone is doing something successfully against you 9 times out of 10 it's a nothing burger... Oh no...they stole a tech from me that they probably would've gotten within the next two or three tech rolls anyways...oh no... Oh no...they made me look bad in front of the galactic community...however will I survive this scathing annoyance? I'm really glad that Paradox didn't give espionage the power to blow up a research building or alloy forge...or other such nonsense...because that's not fun to deal with.

The worst thing they can do is blow up your capital sun but that takes such a very specific and tedious train of events and spawns as to be surprising when it happens....

And look, if they just made espionage have its own 'resource' akin to research (kinda like Space Empires) with its own leader pool, I wouldn't be miffed if their answer was just 'do more spying'...but spies eat up valuable throttled resources (envoys and influence) that could be more better put to building alliances, federations, expansion and a dozen other things influence is currency for....like...vassalages.

And now I have to take A: a civic for it and B: an ascension perk...No, that's too gameplay gatey for my liking.... And if it's going to be that playthrough defining then they better just give me an extra Ascension perk....so I can make room for it. I already have to make strategic decisions on what perks I want to take....don't force me into one just so I don't get dingled by a dumb gameplay mechanic shoehorned into the game.

 

[grommile]

It makes you immune against the contingency saboteurs

Until they rebalance crisis spawn rules, who cares? The Unbidden can smell your spicy jump drive.

 

[SirBlackAxe]

Maybe I missed something from some recent patch, or probably I haven't payed too much attention to Ideology wars, but doesn't they only shift the ethics and authority of the losing empire towards the ones of the winning empire?

I could've sworn ideology wars also replaced civics.

 

[Masked Ermine]

I'm firmly on your side over cloaking and espionage (so this DLC is joining Nemesis on the never-buy list) but, like.

A useless feature is worse than a non-existent one.

I just want cloaking to be as inconvenient for the cloaker as it is for the person that has to deal with the cloaking.... I want it to be something you can do, but not easily, that you have to make very tactical decisions doing it, rather than 'Ho ho, you can't see me', *jumps from out of the shadows stab in back, immediately disappears into the shadows to do it again*. I want it to be...largely just for info gathering with limited military applicability beyond that. Make cloaking less perfect (in the sense that the detecting player knows something's there, but not what or who it is, or in-system where it is), make it really stress the cloaking player out that they have to work their way around inhibition stations either by not decloaking and taking looping paths around, or choosing stations their fleets can take while dealing with extreme decloak malice.

 

[Ikael]

Again, wasting influence and envoys to do espionage. Stop making espionage necessary....It's great that it isn't necessary so I don't have to fuss around with it. The worst thing about espionage game mechanics is that they divert attention away from gameplay to micromanage espionage...the nice thing about Stellaris's espionage is that it is completely ignorable....even if someone is doing something successfully against you 9 times out of 10 it's a nothing burger... Oh no...they stole a tech from me that they probably would've gotten within the next two or three tech rolls anyways...oh no... Oh no...they made me look bad in front of the galactic community...however will I survive this scathing annoyance? I'm really glad that Paradox didn't give espionage the power to blow up a research building or alloy forge...or other such nonsense...because that's not fun to deal with.

The worst thing they can do is blow up your capital sun but that takes such a very specific and tedious train of events and spawns as to be surprising when it happens....

And look, if they just made espionage have its own 'resource' akin to research (kinda like Space Empires) with its own leader pool, I wouldn't be miffed if their answer was just 'do more spying'...but spies eat up valuable throttled resources (envoys and influence) that could be more better put to building alliances, federations, expansion and a dozen other things influence is currency for....like...vassalages.

And now I have to take A: a civic for it and B: an ascension perk...No, that's too gameplay gatey for my liking.... And if it's going to be that playthrough defining then they better just give me an extra Ascension perk....so I can make room for it. I already have to make strategic decisions on what perks I want to take....don't force me into one just so I don't get dingled by a dumb gameplay mechanic shoehorned into the game.

But that's the beauty of this current design, espionage becoming necessary is still a rare occurrence. Espionage becomes important if:

a) You get the Stellarite devourer. A quite rare thing indeed.

b) You happen to face an enemy ahead in cloaking tech AND you get unlucky with sensor tech draws (despite being regular, non-rare techs). That does not sound exceedingly common to me either.

Espionage giving you extra options to get out of a rout, rather than becoming mandatory or irrelevant seems like a very balanced decision to me: nothing bad happens if you ignore espionage, but good things happen if you focus on it. I really don't think that such a change would make any civic mandatory, much less an AP as lame as Enigmatic engineering.

PS: Envoys rule. Always wanting to have more envoys is akin to always wanting to have more Tradition slots: good game design makes for hard, interesting player choices!

 

[Masked Ermine]

But that's the beauty of this current design, espionage becoming necessary is still a rare occurrence. Espionage becomes important if:

a) You get the Stellarite devourer. A quite rare thing indeed.

b) You happen to face an enemy ahead in cloaking tech AND you get unlucky with sensor tech draws (despite being regular, non-rare techs). That does not sound exceedingly common to me either.

Espionage giving you extra options to get out of a rout, rather than becoming mandatory or irrelevant seems like a very balanced decision to me: nothing bad happens if you ignore espionage, but good things happen if you focus on it. I really don't think that such a change would make any civic mandatory, much less an AP as lame as Enigmatic engineering.

PS: Envoys rule. Always wanting to have more envoys is akin to always wanting to have more Tradition slots: good game design makes for hard, interesting player choices!

Except it feels like it will be necessary because min-maxers will focus down cloaking....Nothing bad happens? Having a 1 million fleet magically slip passed your defenses and fleets and appear out of the ether to bomb you to oblivion, because you didn't get the civic that let you see the level 10 mega fleet of corvettes? I disagree I think cloaking can have a very streamlined effect of immediately everyone's doing it and min-maxing into it and those games won't be fun unless you do these specific things to combat it...which...will either lead to things like the ISL banning cloaking above a certain level or something else (like they do now for vassals).

I think Espionage needs a rework and specifically needs to be disentangled from influence and envoys and made more akin to research with its own buyable leaders.

And also WE ALREADY HAVE HARD DECISIONS...it's stupid to further tax that....just to avoid an annoying gameplay mechanic thrown in late in the day.

I don't mind cloaking being a thing, but cloaking needs to be as annoying and cumbersome to the cloaker, as it is to the person combating the cloaking.....

 

[Sappho of Lesbos]

To my future enemies, I have only this to say:

Jolan tru.

 

[lilsaihah]

No I'm not. I am asking you to justify your argument. They claimed that Frigates are useless as Cruisers are better, and you claimed "only way to beat +8". My question is when are you ever going to be in a situation where you need to beat +8?

6 detector buildings with the dark matter building buff is +8 detector

there is also also an Insight tech to buff listening posts to give the same buff. not sure if they stack for +10 or don't for +8

 

[Millbot]

Further thoughts on how cloaking does actually make current starbase cap a bit problematic. This seems like it's going to mostly be an issue in the first few decades after people unlock cloaking technology. Given that the current information shows that a detection oriented starbase can see into neighboring systems and be strengthen with science ships. There is some freedom in where a detection oriented starbase can be placed and still provide adequate coverage.

Also I do see some potential for this to be an area where tall empires could be given an advantage over wide empires. The reason I'm not fan of ascension perk Grasp the Void or megacorp trading hubs civic. Besides both being mediocre and not worth it, while the latter is very niche on who has access to it. I also don't think it should be feasible for wide empires to fully lock down their borders against cloaked vessels. I do like the idea that tall should have an edge where it's rather feasible and easy for them to cover their territory and prevent cloak vessels from entering, while wide empires have to prioritize what systems they keep locked down.

With that all said, a simple solution might be to increase an empire's starting base capacity to 4. Also this could be a good time to visit the idea of capital starbases. So really there are two options here. Increase the cap to 4 at start or leave it at three, but capital system starbases end up not adding to the cap. If capital starbases were added, that opens the option to create a starbase that is better than normal ones in a number of areas, One area is that this starbase better at defense on a baseline level in both repelling attacks and preventing entry of cloaked ships. Another upside is that it would make early zerg rushes a little less face roll. Also form an immersion point of view, it really does make sense that the starbase with the capital world should be the best starbase an empire has. Regardless, this does give smaller empires some more flexibility in starbase placement, since it would give them an additional starbase to work with.

Another question that needs to be asked, is how the targeting will work. If defense platforms are targeted first, then this is a buff to defense platforms. Don't know if they take addional damage from torpedoes or not. Regardless, a station with those is going to have somethin to eat the first wave of torpedoes, while a station without them is going to eat those torpedoes. Also you can put point defense on those platforms to further screw over cloaked fleets; especially, if they have to still fully or partially recharge their shields. Not to mention, it's probably worth stationing a small fleet of corvettes build to deal with such kinds of attacks.

Now one aspect I'm not looking forward to is that this is going to make gateways even more dominant than they already are. It let's an empire get away with needing less starbases devoted towards detection and does probably let a super wide empire fully cover all their territory in a way to prevent cloaked ships from passing. Obviously, as someone that thinks a downside to becoming wide should be that it's harder to secure your borders against cloaked vessels, I'm not a fan. It's also a way to need less response fleets for dealing with such strikes. It's also going to make complaints against hyperrelays more frequent and I don't agree with the idea of making gateways better hyperrelays, both should have their own niche. So it's something the devs might want to look into because it's already kind of annoying how gateways are the go to solution for making piracy much less obnoxious when an empire hits a certain size.

 

[oreopirate]

Except it feels like it will be necessary because min-maxers will focus down cloaking....Nothing bad happens? Having a 1 million fleet magically slip passed your defenses and fleets and appear out of the ether to bomb you to oblivion, because you didn't get the civic that let you see the level 10 mega fleet of corvettes? I disagree I think cloaking can have a very streamlined effect of immediately everyone's doing it and min-maxing into it and those games won't be fun unless you do these specific things to combat it...which...will either lead to things like the ISL banning cloaking above a certain level or something else (like they do now for vassals).

I think Espionage needs a rework and specifically needs to be disentangled from influence and envoys and made more akin to research with its own buyable leaders.

And also WE ALREADY HAVE HARD DECISIONS...it's stupid to further tax that....just to avoid an annoying gameplay mechanic thrown in late in the day.

I don't mind cloaking being a thing, but cloaking needs to be as annoying and cumbersome to the cloaker, as it is to the person combating the cloaking.....

There are bad things. We still don't have all the details, but a cloaked fleet of any worth is likely going to be just destroyers and corvettes/frigates. I doubt people will be cloaking all their fleets, as cloaked fleets do move slower (we still don't know how much slower). Main fleets will already be sweeping systems with their battleships and escorts. You may have to choose between taking systems, and hitting an enemies shipyard behind the lines.

I agree, espionage needs a rework to have more impacts. Right now, it's only an edge case impact. But using influence and envoys is perfect, because it is supposed to force to make the hard decisions about where to use them.

Yes, hard decisions is the point. The most impactful gameplay mechanics are the ones that force a hard choice with resounding consequences, and choosing between espionage and diplomacy for non envoy flush empires is a good mechanic. If you want both, just play xenophile. I usually have too many envoys, and don't know what to do with them, with vassals, a federation, spy networks in my big rivals, and the galactic community. I just dump the extra in the galcom, and federation.

EDIT: it was pointed out to me that the speed penalties were in the dev diary. -50% sublight, and 2.25x ftl charge time at level one. That some big penalties at level one.

 

[Mcgan]

as cloaked fleets do move slower (we still don't know how much slower).

-10% Sublight Speed and +25% FTL Windup per level below 6. It's in this very DD, search for "Cloaking Strength levels and penalties".

 

[grommile]

Yes, hard decisions is the point. The most impactful gameplay mechanics are the ones that force a hard choice with resounding consequences, and choosing between espionage and diplomacy for non envoy flush empires is a good mechanic.

Nah. I just choose diplomacy and leave Nemesis unpurchased.

Similarly, I just choose "not cloaking" and leave the new DLC unpurchased.

 

[oreopirate]

Nah. I just choose diplomacy and leave Nemesis unpurchased.

Similarly, I just choose "not cloaking" and leave the new DLC unpurchased.

And that's your prerogative. And you and I can just agree to disagree on whether or not espionage is worth it.

-10% Sublight Speed and +25% FTL Windup per level below 6. It's in this very DD, search for "Cloaking Strength levels and penalties".

Ah, I see it now.

 

[Lorenerd11]

I think we passed that point in the dev diary where the devs still answer, so… that's unfortunate.

 

[George Fernell]

Suggestion:

In the past you tried to buff Subterfuge tradition by blatantly strapping combat bonuses to it.
Now that we have cloaking - its a perfect opportunity to remove those and add several cloaking & counter cloaking bonuses to the tree.
I think it would be very fun from gameplay and RP standpoint.

 

[grommile]

And that's your prerogative. And you and I can just agree to disagree on whether or not espionage is worth it.

Espionage, as usual, hits the magic sour spot: too powerful to tolerate it being used against you, not powerful enough to justify using it against players who don't have blood pressure.

 

[oreopirate]

Espionage, as usual, hits the magic sour spot: too powerful to tolerate it being used against you, not powerful enough to justify using it against players who don't have blood pressure.

See I suspect that is the base difference. I love it when the AI uses espionage against me.
I loathe multiplayer. In my experience (And in my circle of people I play with), everyone either plays meta, wants to play along the same theme, or has worse internet than me and constantly dc's.

 

[Harkinian's Dinner]

Espionage, as usual, hits the magic sour spot: too powerful to tolerate it being used against you, not powerful enough to justify using it against players who don't have blood pressure.

It's very powerful if used in the right way(most of all to steal favors from powerful hostile empires, which can then be used to for example have those empires declared a crisis), but the AI never does that, meaning it's not in an annoying spot at all in my opinion. It's also pretty fun to use against friends in a typical multiplayer game - I'm pretty sure most multiplayer games are not meta-games with random people, but just groups of friends playing casually.

 

[lilsaihah]

Suggestion:

In the past you tried to buff Subterfuge tradition by blatantly strapping combat bonuses to it.
Now that we have cloaking - its a perfect opportunity to remove those and add several cloaking & counter cloaking bonuses to the tree.
I think it would be very fun from gameplay and RP standpoint.

Honestly I'm inclined to disagree. It's actually got a clear use case now, it was kinda okay before but now it's really good if you want to lean hard into corvettes/frigates/destroyers. It's also complimentary to Supremacy while not overpowering it, or being overpowered in tandem with it.

Espionage, as usual, hits the magic sour spot: too powerful to tolerate it being used against you, not powerful enough to justify using it against players who don't have blood pressure.

Honestly I've only found it particularly useful for intel and for science speed buffs.
Funnily, Steal Tech has become better as you may want to steal Insights or Archaeotechs!

 

[malakhglitch]

This story pack might actually shake up playstyles a bit more than I initially thought it would if all the discussions about aspects of it are any indication. I don't know about you guys, but I actually feel excited about the coming changes.