Stellaris Dev Diary #352 - Stellaris 3.13 'Vela' Improvements and Preliminary Release Notes

[DarkHelmet110985]

As I look at the Strategic Deposit changes, I'm going to respectfully disagree with this decision. Districts are a finite resource just as Building Slots happen to be and while this change does make Subterranean, Ocean Paradise and especially Life Seeded way stronger, some builds forego having Miners altogether thanks to Arc Furnaces(for those with Machine Age) and Vassals. Instead of tying Strategic Resource output to Miners, I propose that you instead make them Event Jobs that are unlocked when the appropriate Tech is researched.

As Event Jobs, they're independent of Districts or Buildings, allowing us to specialize our Planets as we see fit. Furthermore, Mote Harvesting Traps, Crystal Mines and Gas Wells can be built to increase their productivity much in the manner that Ancient Refinery does on Refineries. Mineral Purification Plants/Hubs can also be updated to include Strategic Gatherer output. Reasoning for this is due to the Mining Designation. It buffs Miners and Strategic Gatherers but Mineral Purification plant doesn't follow suit.

 

[MadCow94]

I think the consensus (and I could be wrong) is "great idea doing away with strategic resource basic buildings... but please just do it the easy, obvious, and already in use way."

 

[DarkHelmet110985]

I don't feel they should do away with Strategic Gatherers or their respective Buildings. As I've noted before, I feel they should take Strategic Deposits and turn their respective Strategic Gatherer job into Event-Class jobs. Event Class jobs are independent of Buildings or Districts, giving players the freedom to specialize their planets as they see fit. This would, in turn, turn the Industrial Sector Feature on Relic Worlds into effectively 6 Gatherer Jobs like the 8 Researcher jobs that come from unblocking the Central Spire. Then players would have the option to build a Gas Well, Mote Harvesting Trap or Crystal Mine to add additional Gatherer jobs of that respective type while boosting their output. Mineral Purification Plant/Hubs would also boost Gatherer Output in addition to Miners, making Mining Worlds very productive on the Strategic Resource front.

 

[MadCow94]

I don't feel they should do away with Strategic Gatherers or their respective Buildings. As I've noted before, I feel they should take Strategic Deposits and turn their respective Strategic Gatherer job into Event-Class jobs. Event Class jobs are independent of Buildings or Districts, giving players the freedom to specialize their planets as they see fit. This would, in turn, turn the Industrial Sector Feature on Relic Worlds into effectively 6 Gatherer Jobs like the 8 Researcher jobs that come from unblocking the Central Spire. Then players would have the option to build a Gas Well, Mote Harvesting Trap or Crystal Mine to add additional Gatherer jobs of that respective type while boosting their output. Mineral Purification Plant/Hubs would also boost Gatherer Output in addition to Miners, making Mining Worlds very productive on the Strategic Resource front.

That is exactly what we (and most mods, and habitats in the current patch) all want.

A deposit adds +X Gas Miner/Crystal Miner/Mote Gatherer jobs directly from the deposit.

Buildings would still be available for when you need to refine more than you produce naturally.

 

[Ajacoba]

alternatively you could just adapt to the new stuff, turn some of the strategic resources into additional mining worlds and then use the excess minerals for a refinery world

 

[Abdulijubjub]

The strategic change is (IMO) more interesting than the previous, nearly unnoticeable version, which boiled down to "save 10 minerals in upkeep by using a gatherer instead of a refiner". And it mostly seems like a buff for wide empires and hives (who need a lot more minerals than anyone else).

Overall, I like it, even though I think I'm unlikely to actually use it at all in any of the empires I'm planning to play this patch.

 

[HFY]

alternatively you could just adapt to the new stuff, turn some of the strategic resources into additional mining worlds and then use the excess minerals for a refinery world

Aye like when I found that world with 2 mining districts and 4 gas potential, definitely something to adapt into right?

Do you have some way to make that planet work?

-----

Simple seems better: just give the colony 4 jobs for 4 gas potential like a Habitat already does.

It's so easy that there's already a mod in my sig to do it.

 

[Ajacoba]

Aye like when I found that world with 2 mining districts and 4 gas potential, definitely something to adapt into right?

Do you have some way to make that planet work?

-----

Simple seems better: just give the colony 4 jobs for 4 gas potential like a Habitat already does.

It's so easy that there's already a mod in my sig to do it.

I mean, the deposit itself gives 3 mining districts too, which means 5 districts, 8 if it's a double deposit

So yes, I absolutely have some way of making that planet work, at the very least it could be a rural world or I could turn it into a science, unity, fortress or refinery work - just farm one resource with districts and farm another with buildings

 

[DarkHelmet110985]

All they're doing is shifting the burden of mining natural deposits from Building slots to Districts. Both are finite resources for players to juggle and yet as HFY pointed out, the solution is smack in their face: Habitats. Habitats yield x amount of Gatherer jobs based on the size of the Deposit the Habitat is built over. For Planets, you merely grant X amount of Gatherer jobs based on the size of the Deposit but they only become active once you've obtained the Exploitative Technology. For Industrial Sector Feature on Relic Worlds, you can add a new requirement that makes it unclearable until you've obtained all 3 Exploitation Technlogies. This would effectively make Relic Worlds far more attractive and really hard to turn them into Ecumenopolis given you'd be losing not just 8 Researcher jobs from Central Spire but also those 6 Gatherer jobs from Industrial Sector.

Then rather than removing Mote Harvesting Traps/Gas Wells/Crystal Mines from the game, you merely make them behave like Mineral Purifcation Plants/Hubs. You can only build them where Deposits exist(just like it is now) but you can only build one per Planet(even if you have 2 or more Deposits, limit is still 1). First Tier adds 1 Strategic Gatherer job but increases Gatherer Output by 1. 2nd Tier, which is new, yields a 2nd Gatherer job and increases Gatherer Output by 2. This would take base output from 2 to 4 and would make building Gatherer Buildings worthwhile. Is it a buff to Strategic Gatherers... yes, yes it is. Anything to reduce reliance on Refineries and specifically, the Ancient Refinery as I see it.

 

[HFY]

Anything to reduce reliance on Refineries and specifically, the Ancient Refinery as I see it.

Your idea about buffing Gatherers with a planet-unique building is good, but I will note that your buff stacks with the Ancient Refinery bonus.

 

[Ajacoba]

Your idea about buffing Gatherers with a planet-unique building is good, but I will note that your buff stacks with the Ancient Refinery bonus.

It doesn't

The deposit jobs are considered miners, not refiners, therefore they don't get buffed by the ancient refinery

 

[HFY]

It doesn't

The deposit jobs are considered miners, not refiners, therefore they don't get buffed by the ancient refinery

Game text says +25% x from jobs (for x in gas, motes, crystals)

Wiki says +25% from the 3 refinery jobs


I've been talking about what I see in the game, where did you get your info?

 

[DarkHelmet110985]

Ancient Refinery only applies to Refiner or Specialist class jobs and not the Strategic Gatherer or Worker Class variants. The fact Ancient Refinery yields a Refinery job of each respective type implies it buffs Specialists or Refiners. Ancient Refinery + Refinery Designation(w/ Adaptability finisher) = 60% at Tier 0 to as much as 145% with a Tier 10 world(includes Ascensionist + Holy Covenant + Harmony Finisher). A Mining World(w/ Adaptability finisher) = 35% at Tier 0 going as high as 183.75% at Tier 10. Takes to Tier 8 before a Mining Designation surpasses what a Refinery world can achieve. Then we have to factor in Technology, Ethics(Egalitarian, Authoritarian), Civics(Meritocracy) and Council Positions(Shared Burdens) into the equation and it just becomes a giant cluster$#@*&.

TLDR: Ancient Refineries buff Refiners, not Strategic Gatherers and Refiners have the edge right now since they can be built anywhere and Ancient Refinery buffs the living snot out of them.

 

[AllYourPopsAreBelongToUs]

"To get this exotic gas, we must either mine minerals we don't need, or grow food we don't eat."

"Or we could build a Habitat. That one system would give us 5 jobs which don't require any mining or farming."

"Yep. That's just how Habitats are."

"Why can't we use those same jobs on a planet?"

"Space God hates planets."

"Amen."

Thats actually kind of realistic:
How to best get diamonds on earth? Dig, dig, dig and get lucky
How to best get diamonds in space? Search for one of these neat 99% diamond astoroids and just harvest it.

 

[HFY]

How to best get diamonds on earth? Dig, dig, dig and get lucky

Synthetic diamonds are a significant business, and if you care about the specific industrial properties then you probably want lab-fabricated diamonds (e.g. the semiconductor variant diamonds require a specific boron or phosphate doping and are very unlikely to occur naturally in the correct proportion).

So even on our pre-FTL planet, the Refinery version might be better.

 

[Mcgan]

The deposit jobs are considered miners, not refiners, therefore they don't get buffed by the ancient refinery

Where did you even get that idea?

Ancient Refinery only applies to Refiner or Specialist class jobs and not the Strategic Gatherer or Worker Class variants. The fact Ancient Refinery yields a Refinery job of each respective type implies it buffs Specialists or Refiners.

The modifiers actually state "from Jobs" but you decide to guess imaginary restrictions instead?

Spoiler

These are the modifiers for the "Ancient Refinery":

building_archaeo_refinery = {

    planet_modifier = {
        planet_jobs_exotic_gases_produces_mult = 0.25
        planet_jobs_rare_crystals_produces_mult = 0.25
        planet_jobs_volatile_motes_produces_mult = 0.25
    }

planet_jobs_exotic_gases_produces_mult = 0.25 means +25% Exotic Gases production for all jobs.

If it was only for specialists, it would be planet_jobs_specialist_exotic_gases_produces_mult = 0.25
If it was only for refiners, it would be planet_refiners_exotic_gases_produces_mult = 0.25
And so on.


As to the SR gatherer changes, I don't mind it much. This will make Relic Worlds much better for me, since I already tend to use them for minerals + SRs.
Catalytic empires though...
Especially Catalytic Assimilators with only biological species. What would those guys do with minerals? Use them for diplomacy?

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Ancient Refinery only applies to Refiner or Specialist class jobs and not the Strategic Gatherer or Worker Class variants. The fact Ancient Refinery yields a Refinery job of each respective type implies it buffs Specialists or Refiners. Ancient Refinery + Refinery Designation(w/ Adaptability finisher) = 60% at Tier 0 to as much as 145% with a Tier 10 world(includes Ascensionist + Holy Covenant + Harmony Finisher). A Mining World(w/ Adaptability finisher) = 35% at Tier 0 going as high as 183.75% at Tier 10. Takes to Tier 8 before a Mining Designation surpasses what a Refinery world can achieve. Then we have to factor in Technology, Ethics(Egalitarian, Authoritarian), Civics(Meritocracy) and Council Positions(Shared Burdens) into the equation and it just becomes a giant cluster$#@*&.

TLDR: Ancient Refineries buff Refiners, not Strategic Gatherers and Refiners have the edge right now since they can be built anywhere and Ancient Refinery buffs the living snot out of them.

This is just factually incorrect. The refinery buffs all jobs that produce gas/crystals/motes: both worker gatherers and specialist refiners.

After the patch, it should even buff the gas/motes/crystal that get incidentally added to miners.

 

[DamnedLackOfTropicalFruit]

As to the SR gatherer changes, I don't mind it much. This will make Relic Worlds much better for me, since I already tend to use them for minerals + SRs.
Catalytic empires though...
Especially Catalytic Assimilators with only biological species. What would those guys do with minerals? Use them for diplomacy?

If I had to guess, they'll probably use them to build things and make consumer goods. Or alternatively, they won't mine them at all, and instead they'll use their civic-buffed refinery jobs.

I agree with what others have said about how this change is good, not in spite of how it disproportionately affects certain empire types, but because it disproportionately affects certain empire types.

It's not like Catalytic Processing and massive GA vassal swarms are desperately weak strategies that won't survive a small incidental nerf, while all the playstyles that employ a bunch of miners are all already dominant. I'm excited to see how this change improves empires that would have employed the miners anyway.

 

[Cry_Havok]

Some ideas for penal colonies, because I feel like there are things other than Gulags that penal colonies can represent. These could be a planetary decision that modify the specifcation.

Rehabilitation Colony - replace some wardens with culture workers. Workers no longer have reduced political power "A highly transient population with a local population mostly involved in social services. Prisoners work off their debts to society while receiving training and education." (Modeled after modern ideas of prison reform)

Transportation Colony - remove Warden jobs entirely, add bonus housing to rural districts. "Rather than spend time in prison, criminals are sent to this distant world to settle it in the name of the empire". (Focused on rural jobs rather than industry, based on Australia in particular)

 

[lordvagrant]

Applying planetary ascension math to the designation modifiers suggests that, when fully ascended (10) and boosted with ascension enhancers,

• Thrall World grants +26.25% Worker Resource Output, +1,050 Army Starting Experience, -52.5% Army Build Time.
  • 1,000 experience points grants the Veteran rank (+20% Damage, +20% Morale, +10% Health).

This depends on whether any of the modifiers that give Army Starting Experience will actually work