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Stellaris Dev Diary #94 - Ascension Perks & Surveying in Cherryh

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris dev diary. Today's topic was supposed to be ship balance and doomstacks, but because certain things weren't ready to show off yet, we're instead going to be doing a smaller dev diary talking about some changes coming to Ascension Perks and Surveying. We'll get back to the doomstack topic in a couple weeks.

Ascension Perks
Ascension Perks were added in Utopia as the paid component to the Tradition system to create a set of interesting choices for the player to take as they went through the Tradition tree, choosing between simple but powerful bonuses and more elaborate 'unlocks' such as the ascension paths and Megastructures. However, since then we have noticed that this is a system we keep wanting to build on (for example by adding unique Ascension Perks for Machine Empires as we did in Synthetic Dawn), and found the requirement to depend all of this on Utopia too limiting. For this reason, in the Cherryh update, we are going to make the basic Ascension Perks such as Mastery of Nature, Defender of the Galaxy and so on free for everyone. Biological/Psionic/Synthetic Ascension Paths and Megastructure Ascension Perks (including Habitats) will still require Utopia and Machine Empire Ascension Perks will naturally still require Synthetic Dawn (but not Utopia). The core system itself however, will become part of the base game, so everyone will be able to get at least the basic set of Ascension Perks even if they don't own a single piece of DLC.

Surveying & Communications Trading
The way surveying, anomaly generation and star chart trading works has never really worked very well. For one, it's very unclear to players that for example, you cannot discover anomalies in other empires' space, or that star chart trading can actually be a bad idea since it can in some cases stop you from finding anomalies in those systems. For this reason, we've decided to make some changes to the way surveying works. In Cherryh, any system inside the borders of an empire you have communications with will automatically be considered surveyed, without any need to send a science ship into it and waste a bunch of time scanning planets that have no chance of yielding anomalies aynway. There are some exceptions to this, such as Fallen Empires, whose space will need to be surveyed manually and can in fact yield anomalies.

As part of this we have decided to remove Star Chart trading as well as the ability to buy Star Charts from Curators, and instead replace this with the option to trade Communications with another empire - acquiring Communications from an empire in a trade deal will automatically put you in comms with any empires they have comms with that you do not. This should mean that there are no longer any 'traps' in surveying, while also requiring the need to explore every little nook of the galaxy even when that nook is held by your ally since a hundred years back.
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Terra Incognita Changes
Finally, I just wanted to mentioned that we have done some changes to Terra Incognita to make it more clear and make it work properly with bypasses (Wormholes and Gateways). Instead of Terra Incognita being based on which physical pixels on the map your ships have 'seen', it is now based on which systems are considered visited. Visited either means that you have been to the system with a ship, or that the system is inside the borders of an empire that you have communications with. As such, Terra Incognita no longer needs to be manually lifted on empires you have met in order to not make them appear grey and washed out on the map, also making it easier to see important galactic features such as nebulas.
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That's all for today! I know it was a short one, but don't worry, we still have a long way to go and plenty of major things to talk about for Cherryh. However, next week we're actually going to be talking about something that's§ unrelated to Cherryh, but exciting nonetheless. I'm not allowed to spoil what just yet, but stay tuned!
 
But, I thought that you could survey systems previously in enemy territory (aquired after take over, cleansing, integrating etc), with a small chance of finding anomalies there.

This will now become impossible?
 
And you are one of the reasons why game devs pull all sorts of sleazy rubbish like EA. Just becaus it’s free does not mean they are allow to shovel cr*p onto our plates.

You are absolutly right I am responsible for EAs polocies. Asking for fair compansation for something I paid for makes game devs pull all sorts of sleazy rubbish.
 
But, I thought that you could survey systems previously in enemy territory (aquired after take over, cleansing, integrating etc), with a small chance of finding anomalies there.

This will now become impossible?

Honestly, I don't think I've found an anomaly in territory claimed by someone else, but I could be forgetting something.
 
REALLY hate these changes. Even more than the FTL-haters hated those changes. Please at a minimum make comunications trading an empire-by-empire thing and not all at once.

Is there going to be an option to prohibit other nations from sharing communications with YOU? It's bad enough when the Xeno's research communications with you- now they can share that with friends?!?!?! wtf?!

Survey changes are also terrible. One of the rewards for invading someone early is that you can then survey their former territory.

Worst of all are the TI changes. One of the things I was hoping was going to change now that we are lanes-only is the elimination entirely of automatic TI lifting, only showing territory that you have seen and that you know is in an enemy empire. This way you might think the empire next door is tiny when they actually have a huge territory you don't know about. Instead this seems to have gone the other way - if you've even spoken to someone (or had your communications shared - again what the heck?) you now know about their entire empire and even worse have their systems auto-surveyed (Which is an incentive to try and avoid contact at all) even if it's clear across the galaxy or in a region of space you wanted to conquer to survey.

Will the TI changes be able to be modded back at least?
 
The question is: would you buy a DLC if you know that DLC will be free after one year? And thats a yes from me if its a good game like Stellaris.

Did you bought Stellaris in full price or you waited until a discount?

And its just one little part of Utopia... you still get Megastructures, real ascensions (synth/psi/bio), and hive minds, and you rant about poor Jimmy who can taste the flavour of a crab for free when you are eating a real crab... Dont you want to go to Africa and scream about UN giving away free food?

Anyway in my opinion every DLC should be free after 1 year its release, because less DLCs = less versions of the game = less work for devs to make every patch compatible with every possible version = less bugs = more time for devs to make more content.
 
As someone who has bought Utopia, I back the developers' decision on this 100%. The tendency to introduce a new, completely unrelated mechanic in each DLC to try to justify the price tag instead of building onto previously introduced systems is the biggest problem with the development model used for Europa Univeralis 4.

Most of those arguing against it aren't saying that the system should be kept for Utopia owners only. They are arguing that Ascension perks in Utopia should remain exclusive to utopia, and a new set should be created to be given away free to everyone.
 
Most of those arguing against it aren't saying that the system should be kept for Utopia owners only. They are arguing that Ascension perks in Utopia should remain exclusive to utopia, and a new set should be created to be given away free to everyone.

Why? The perks they're giving for free are already the most basic perks available. What do you want them to replace them with that isn't going to be redundant?
 
You have no control over your information not being given away, however. Apparently, this is working as intended:

It's not really that much information, honestly. Right now even with the fog of war you can still see where another empire's planets are, the size of said planets, how many bodies there are in each system, etc. The only real changes are that you can now see the deposits available in each system without surveying first (and you kind of need this information with the war goals rework, unless you like the idea of taking a bunch of mining outpost systems only to discover that they've only got crummy 1-mineral tile deposits), and the ability to click on planets to view the pops/buildings on their surface.

Fleets are still going to be hidden by the fog of war. Defence stations should still be hidden, since I believe they're hidden until you get active sensor coverage. You'll be able to see starbases, I guess.
 
And WTF about the communications trade rant? You clearly dont understand the concept: its trading star charts... but worse! You will get surveys ONLY about those systems which ones are inside your partners territory, and which ones are their partners territory. Before this, if someone bought all star charts from every empire, and you bought their star charts... bam.. whole galaxy surveyed. Oh and you do not need to accept these trades...
 
No they are not. The right to receive patches is bought with original game.

Sure, to a certain point. Most devs however stop patching a game after a year or so and consider it "feature complete", they may occasionally fix a bug but how often do other developers continue to add stuff to the base game besides maybe DLC? Paradox could have stopped adding stuff all together at this point and just worked on bug fixes and then abandoned this for Stellaris 2. They haven't, because it's still profitable for them to do it this way and in return we get a better game.
 
Why? The perks they're giving for free are already the most basic perks available. What do you want them to replace them with that isn't going to be redundant?

Because people paid for them.

You could add things like an ascension perk that gives you more weight in trades with other empires, Better sensors perk, +2 buildings on starbases perks, any number of other things that could work with the new expansion, and thats all without taking things that DLC owners already paid for.
 
The question is: would you buy a DLC if you know that DLC will be free after one year? And thats a yes from me if its a good game like Stellaris.

Did you bought Stellaris in full price or you waited until a discount?

And its just one little part of Utopia... you still get Megastructures, real ascensions (synth/psi/bio), and hive minds, and you rant about poor Jimmy who can taste the flavour of a crab for free when you are eating a real crab... Dont you want to go to Africa and scream about UN giving away free food?

Anyway in my opinion every DLC should be free after 1 year its release, because less DLCs = less versions of the game = less work for devs to make every patch compatible with every possible version = less bugs = more time for devs to make more content.
1)yes. definitely.
2)yes
3)---
4)would've been nice..but unfortunately dev's are not entirely substituted their living employees with ai. so they need to eat. that's why I suspect they still need to sell dlc even after a year.
No they are not. The right to receive patches is bought with original game.
is it? if the game will stop being profitable at least to sustain the dev team (shockingly they need to pay money every month to their employers) they may stop supporting the game with patches and bug fixes. and it will be their right
 
Because people paid for them.

You could add things like an ascension perk that gives you more weight in trades with other empires, Better sensors perk, +2 buildings on starbases perks, any number of other things that could work with the new expansion, and thats all without taking things that DLC owners already paid for.

They're likely going to add some stuff like that. You clearly want more however, so I guess we're going to have to continue to disagree.
 
If this is true currently, then there is still a problem because while you may not be able to generate new anomalies, that does not mean that the AI has not already spawned them and just never completed the project.

I'm not sure how it works, but I've had instances where I had full intel of systems controlled by an AI and could not survey them. But, once the AI fell, those systems went dark and when I surveyed them I found a bunch of anomalies it never got around to.

Like Wiz said, people misunderstand the current system :p

Anomalies are generated randomly, upon surveying, and are empire specific. When you conquer worlds and find anomalies there, you are not finding anomalies the AI left behind. You are just surveying a planet that's not within another empire's borders. And, as long as that specific planet hasn't had an anomaly found on it before, you can randomly generate a new one.

As I mentioned, it sort of doesn't make sense that territory actually gets better and better, the more owners its had, who could generate anomalies in it. These changes will prevent that.

But, unless they also prevent multiple empires from generating anomalies in neutral systems, it still doesn't completely make sense. As far as I know, this is currently possible, and I don't see anything mentioned here that would disallow it...


With the new system you have to have surveyed a system to be able to have it inside your borders. So this cannot happen.

Glad somebody mentioned it, I was afraid I'd have to :p this was clarified in the dev diary that introduced starports.

I'm not sure what to think about the ascension perk changes. The basic version of it being made available for everyone is obviously a positive in the sense that it can be further built on and it's great for those that don't have it, but for those that did buy that DLC, to me it seems like a pretty big downside with nothing to really make up for it.

You're going back and retroactively changing something that was one of the core selling points of the DLC free for everyone, meaning that there is now less value to having bought that DLC in the first place. Yes, you still get the full set, but it was the ascension perk system itself that was a selling point...and it was one of the bigger ones for the pack. It's like saying "Oh, that thing you bought a while ago? We decided to go back and make it so your purchase was worth less in the long run, but thanks for the money anyway".

I don't mean to sound selfish or unfair, it's obviously good that everyone will get the perk system now, it's just taking away one of the whole reasons for buying the DLC in the first place and offering no compensation doesn't seem like a good thing to me.

I know there were a lot more posts about this after, but this is the one I clicked quote on.

Games and DLC go on sale, obviously. That's not a problem, and doesn't mean the game or DLC have "less value"... Because it's expected? Games and DLC also just drop in price as they get older. Now, that definitely means "less value" to me, even if it's expected. When they begin to sell the game for the same or lower price that you paid for it, with the DLC included, that's not less value either? No compensation needed? The only thing you gained, above any of these, by paying full price, is you got to play around with it earlier.

So, the problem is that the feature (not the whole DLC) actually became completely free? Other than needing the base game, but not a special DLC-inclusive version of the base game? That's the cutoff point, at which suddenly compensation is required for your loss of value?

Because you didn't expect it? Well, news flash: these days it's pretty common for paid features to become standard after a while. Or, in fact, whole games that people paid full price for, to become free. Sometimes, it's so the company can get more money, by introducing pay-to-win features that the new free players will buy, or drawing more customers in general. Sometimes, like now, it's to improve the overall state of the game, and open up how that feature can be used. Guess which one is better? Yah, I totally agree, I should be compensated for their efforts to make this game better!

Also, it's not the whole game becoming free, not even a whole DLC, but one mehanic and a fraction of varieties of that mechanic. Your loss of value is far less than you lose every time it goes on sale. And guess what? Just like any of those other value-shredding price changes, even if the entire DLC were made free (which I reiterate it was not), you still got the exact same extra value for buying it: got to play it earlier.

Synopsis - if anyone expects the money they spend on a video game or DLC or feature or what-have-you, whether paying full price vs sale, or full price vs depreciated price, or any price vs free, to buy them anything more than getting to experience it now vs later, I don't know where they've been for the last decade.
 
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Just for clarification does surveyed on established communications mean I actually get the data and can't survey them anymore (includeing that auto explore will ignore those planets) or just that it will no longer yield anomalies? Because there is other stuff to consider like the extra science from discovery traditions.
 
Anomalies are my favorite part of Stellaris. Gone will be the days of waiting until I conquer an enemy to survey the new lands. :-(
With the changes to surveying, what are the balance options to counteract the loss of Planetary Survey Corps?
Will there be the possibility of generating new anomalies (whether in owned space or enemy space) outside of surveying?
Will there be a way to refuse contact with other species, so as to not give up valuable fleet metrics and stellar survey data? The with-holding of survey data isn't about generating more anomalies, it's about keeping information from others. More useful against other players than the AI, but it allows Xenophobic and otherwise recalcitrant AI (and player) empires to be more immersive in that they won't share information with others. An example of this could be a Xenophobic Empire refusing contact/survey data with a player empire, and as the player invades and occupies during a war, the Xenophobic Empire scuttles/destroys mining and research stations, and erases as much data from the outpost/starbase as possible about the system. Without that information, the other empire needs to go in and survey they system to understand what is valuable where.

Maybe I'm getting too far into the weeds, but I'm not seeing any advantage, to letting Communication with another empire=survey data, aside from letting newer/casual players know there are no anomalies to be found in those territories.

Edited because something unintentional was attached.
Second Edit to clarify why Survey Data can be valuable, even without generating more anomalies
 
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