Tinto Flavour #11 - 21st of March 2025 - Ethiopia

[ArVass]

Why did you put quotation marks around "piece of stone" when I never said that? I called it a stone. That's what it is. Sure, a culturally significant work that required a lot of effort to erect, but it's still just a single stone.
While the Great Pyramid is probably not as architecturally intricate as a cathedral, its huge size makes it impressive, especially since it was built so long ago. It definitely deserves to be in the highest category.


In what world does carving and erecting a 24 meter stone take as much technical skill as building an entire 50+ meter tall church? (I'm referring to the Hagia Sophia which was constructed two centuries after the obelisk) Not to mention all the cathedrals built in this game's timeframe which were taller and even more complex.
That's just an absurd claim.

I'm 100% sure that the Hagia Sophia is a Magnum Opus, though. And it does not take a lot of mental gymnastics that stacking many small stones on eachother is easier than erecting a single, insanely heavy one

 

[donbg]

Why did you put quotation marks around "piece of stone" when I never said that? I called it a stone. That's what it is. Sure, a culturally significant work that required a lot of effort to erect, but it's still just a single stone.
While the Great Pyramid is probably not as architecturally intricate as a cathedral, its huge size makes it impressive, especially since it was built so long ago. It definitely deserves to be in the highest category.


In what world does carving and erecting a 24 meter stone take as much technical skill as building an entire 50+ meter tall church? (I'm referring to the Hagia Sophia which was constructed two centuries after the obelisk) Not to mention all the cathedrals built in this game's timeframe which were taller and even more complex.
That's just an absurd claim.

I can also just label the pyramid as a pile of stone bricks or the Buddha rock-carven statues in Afghanistan/India as just stones. It's a silly, reductive statement about what it is. I don't understand why they singled out that particular stele when there are other steles in Ethiopia but it is still a work of art.

Anyway, a cathedral has less complex mathematics going into it compared to the Burj Khalifa so I guess we should all bring the quality of everything down and uphold only the Burj Khalifa? "But the Burj Khalifa wasn't built in the time frame of the game" sure but I'm saying that these comparisons are absolutely silly. The Burj Khalifa doesn't exist on a higher level than the Notre Dame cathedral nowadays.

 

[Ollfardh]

Not sure what the point of this post is. I never weighed in on whether the item in Ethiopia was made 3000 years ago, in Yemen or wherever it is said to have been made. I'm telling you that there is an artifact people believe is the ark of the covenant, which exists in a church in, if I recall, Northern Ethiopia. Are you going to seriously start arguing that Christian artifacts and relics that are known to have been used, shouldn't exist in this game, because "they probably aren't actually really what people say they are"?

Well, to start off, there is already limited evidence for your claim that there even is an item there. Assuming that there is something, I would argue that even without the modern day evidence that Exodus was completely made up, it would be met with scepticism. Fake relics were booming in the middle ages, Jesus had at least a dozen foreskins and there were enough pieces of the Holy Cross to build a few cathedrals. Unless I'm mistaking, I don't think there has ever been any recognision of the item outside Ethiopia?

So, like I said in my first post, the idea of having the Ark giving some buff to Ethiopia has merit, but moving around the world as some here suggested should not be a thing.

 

[Mef]

I can also just label the pyramid as a pile of stone bricks or the Buddha rock-carven statues in Afghanistan/India as just stones. It's a silly, reductive statement about what it is. I don't understand why they singled out that particular stele when there are other steles in Ethiopia but it is still a work of art.

Why is it reductive? It's a stone with carvings, is it not? A pyramid isn't just a pile of stones, because the stones have to be arranged carefully. A statue isn't just a stone for obvious reasons.
I never said that it shouldn't be a work of art, but I said that if "art quality" is the factor that is measured, then it shouldn't rank higher than cathedrals.

Anyway, a cathedral has less complex mathematics going into it compared to the Burj Khalifa so I guess we should all bring the quality of everything down and uphold only the Burj Khalifa? "But the Burj Khalifa wasn't built in the time frame of the game" sure but I'm saying that these comparisons are absolutely silly. The Burj Khalifa doesn't exist on a higher level than the Notre Dame cathedral nowadays.

Both are at the highest level for their time period.

And it does not take a lot of mental gymnastics that stacking many small stones on eachother is easier than erecting a single, insanely heavy one

If it was easier, then big cathedrals would have been built earlier in history than obelisks, but the opposite is true.

 

[Ispil]

The issue is, how does that actually get measured? Like, realistically speaking, a very impressive and significant monument might only be locally known to a small group of people (ie: Sungbo's Eredo), while a similarly impressive monument might be more widely known, simply because the peoples who made it are in contact with a greater part of the world (say, the Theodosian walls). Unless works become more widely known over the course of the game, then, I'm not sure this attempt at more neutral language really makes much sense.

Hell if I know, but that is how they appear to be shifting the localization for this property towards.

 

[Tritium666]

If you guys want to judge art objectively without considering cultural relevancy or tastes you're gonna need criteria. I propose:

-Level & amount of detail - How intricate is the piece, and how much detail is involved overall?
-Gross effort - How much labour did it take? How expensive were the materials?
-Realism of depictions (for visual art only) - How accurate was the artist in their representations?

And no, a single stelae isn't even comparable in effort to a large complex building (either in terms of time or number of skilled workers)

 

[Ispil]

...and a situation, The Rise of Timur. Lots of exciting content is coming! Cheers!

I'm both excited and terrified. There are plenty ways that I can see this being done well... and plenty more ways that I can see it being done horribly wrong.

 

[Samgee Gamwise]

Can you consider an event with what some people consider an Ethiopian proto-Protestant Abba Estifanos of Gwendagwende? He was notable for being iconoclastic and refusing to bow to the Cross, images of the Virgin Mary, or even any earthly power like the Emperor. He was executed for refusing to submit to the Emperor. Not much record is left of him or his movement, known as the Stephenites (from his name Estifanos which is the equivalent of Stephen), though the book The Ge'ez Acts of Abba Estifanos of Gwendagwende retell a very hagiographical and exaggerated account.

Now I admit, I have only heard of him in passing and am not very acquainted with his religious tenets or the entire history, but having him as a nuisance to the Negus's rule or church authorities, or even maybe changing the religious landscape of Ethiopia might make for a good event to include as a potential divergence point.

 

[Bigsoulja9]

Well, to start off, there is already limited evidence for your claim that there even is an item there. Assuming that there is something, I would argue that even without the modern day evidence that Exodus was completely made up, it would be met with scepticism. Fake relics were booming in the middle ages, Jesus had at least a dozen foreskins and there were enough pieces of the Holy Cross to build a few cathedrals. Unless I'm mistaking, I don't think there has ever been any recognision of the item outside Ethiopia?

So, your argument is that even though Ethiopian churches are nearly all known to hold tabots (replicas of the ark), Ethiopians would for some reason not hold an actual tabot which they claim to be the original? OK.

Now, as to whether there are other items like the "Ark", and whether it makes sense to include them, I'll note that other diaries have religious items:

Tinto Flavour #3 - 24th of January 2025 - Novgorod

Hello, and welcome to the third installment of Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays in which we look at the flavour content of the super secret Project Caesar! This week we will be traveling to the cold north, where the Sovereign Lord Republic of...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Tinto Flavour #5 - 7th of February 2025 - Aragon

Hello, and welcome to one more Tinto Flavour, the happy Friday in which we take a look at the content of the new, super-secret Project Caesar. This week we will take a look at the Crown of Aragon, the lands where, centuries later, a certain...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

We are literally 11 Flavour installments into a game set to have well over 100 playable societies and cultures; and we frankly have not even gotten to the parts of the world which are particularly well-known for their creation and use of spiritual or religious artifacts (Abrahamists tending to be comparatively bare-bones when it comes to religious icons).

As for how Arks are implemented, they are an advancement. This means that they are a cultural or social development in the game. If you look at what they do (instead of railing against a suggestion of historicity made by no one), you would see the following:

Available in the Age of Traditions.
Pop Conversion Speed +10.

We are the onl nation to house the sacred Ark of the Covenant after it was taken in secret by Menelik I with divine assistance thousands of years ago. It is hidden away from public view, lest they would attempt to steal our sacred, national treasure. Replicas of the Ark are placed in every single one of our churches as a reminder that our rule is blessed by God.

So, based on the flavour text, this is a representation of a practice of the Ethiopian church, which in-game creates a population conversion bonus. Why does "recognision of the item outside Ethiopia" matter for an internal administrative boost? This is literally just a culturally-specific invocation of a nearly identical advancement from the previous Bavaria diary (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...vour-7-21st-of-february-2025-bavaria.1729568/), and will probably see similar reskins in other cultures which place a high emphasis on religion vis-a-vis the definition of internal identity.

 

[purplephoton]

boy, it was though for him...

I’m sure he could get through being a Mamluk trough with some tough thorough thought, though.

 

[ArVass]

If you guys want to judge art objectively without considering cultural relevancy or tastes you're gonna need criteria. I propose:

-Level & amount of detail - How intricate is the piece, and how much detail is involved overall?
-Gross effort - How much labour did it take? How expensive were the materials?
-Realism of depictions (for visual art only) - How accurate was the artist in their representations?

And no, a single stelae isn't even comparable in effort to a large complex building (either in terms of time or number of skilled workers)

Or what about not objectivizing art, lol

Honestly, I hate this discussion because it is quite literally the opposite of what art should be

 

[Tritium666]

Or what about not objectivizing art, lol

Honestly, I hate this discussion because it is quite literally the opposite of what art should be

Because you have to do it in order to rank it, which is what Paradox is deciding to do for some reason.

I don't know why; I don't see a point in works of art at all in the game, but I'm not the one making decisions. I'm just saying that since they ARE ranking them, it would be best to do it fairly and objectively. So you either come up with criteria, or just rank based on local cultural impact.

 

[ArVass]

I don't understand why they singled out that particular stele when there are other steles in Ethiopia but it is still a work of art.

It is indeed weird, given that it's not even the largest or most interesting one in its own complex, that would be the Obelisk of Axum, but there are like, a dozen bigger and smaller stelae on the same field, so perhaps they could maybe name the Work of Art the "Axum Stelae Field" to include all.

I'm pretty sure then the "it's just a rock!" crowd will go "oh wow, it's multiple stones now! that's completely different".

Also, I am curious if @Pavía has anything for the rock-hewn churches in Lalibela and other sites. If that's not impressive enough, I don't know what is.

 

[Ollfardh]

So, your argument is that even though Ethiopian churches are nearly all known to hold tabots (replicas of the ark), Ethiopians would for some reason not hold an actual tabot which they claim to be the original? OK.

Now, as to whether there are other items like the "Ark", and whether it makes sense to include them, I'll note that other diaries have religious items:

Tinto Flavour #3 - 24th of January 2025 - Novgorod

Hello, and welcome to the third installment of Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays in which we look at the flavour content of the super secret Project Caesar! This week we will be traveling to the cold north, where the Sovereign Lord Republic of...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Tinto Flavour #5 - 7th of February 2025 - Aragon

Hello, and welcome to one more Tinto Flavour, the happy Friday in which we take a look at the content of the new, super-secret Project Caesar. This week we will take a look at the Crown of Aragon, the lands where, centuries later, a certain...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

We are literally 11 Flavour installments into a game set to have well over 100 playable societies and cultures; and we frankly have not even gotten to the parts of the world which are particularly well-known for their creation and use of spiritual or religious artifacts (Abrahamists tending to be comparatively bare-bones when it comes to religious icons).

As for how Arks are implemented, they are an advancement. This means that they are a cultural or social development in the game. If you look at what they do (instead of railing against a suggestion of historicity made by no one), you would see the following:

Available in the Age of Traditions.
Pop Conversion Speed +10.

We are the onl nation to house the sacred Ark of the Covenant after it was taken in secret by Menelik I with divine assistance thousands of years ago. It is hidden away from public view, lest they would attempt to steal our sacred, national treasure. Replicas of the Ark are placed in every single one of our churches as a reminder that our rule is blessed by God.

So, based on the flavour text, this is a representation of a practice of the Ethiopian church, which in-game creates a population conversion bonus. Why does "recognision of the item outside Ethiopia" matter for an internal administrative boost? This is literally just a culturally-specific invocation of a nearly identical advancement from the previous Bavaria diary (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...vour-7-21st-of-february-2025-bavaria.1729568/), and will probably see similar reskins in other cultures which place a high emphasis on religion vis-a-vis the definition of internal identity.

It's not really nice to be selectively quoting me. Or perhaps you missed the rest of my post, in which case I would encourage you to read it again.

We actually seem to be in agreement a buff inside the Ethiopia making sense. My point was directed to the people who wanted this Ark to do something when they took it to Jerusalem like the guy on the first page.

 

[Bigsoulja9]

My point was directed to the people who wanted this Ark to do something when they took it to Jerusalem like the guy on the first page.

W.R.T. a buff inside Ethiopia, nice to see we agree.

W.R.T. ark items, no, we still do not agree, because I see no reason why someone could not reasonably commission a tabot as a WoA (or even why the actual "Ark" held in Aksum couldn't be), and you have not provided one for me a reason why that could not be the case, aside from that you don't think it's the actual ark. You also didn't use the quote function, as you have been in our discussion, so I suppose sorry if I didn't know what you were responding to, exactly?

Also, I am curious if @Pavía has anything for the rock-hewn churches in Lalibela and other sites. If that's not impressive enough, I don't know what is.

St. George in Lalibela is, iirc, one of the Lalibela churches. Not entirely sure why the entire complex is not put together (similar to how you suggested the stela field be combined into one site), but that's another one of those "hm ok then" things.

 

[Rule Britannia]

Ok, so according to my count there is only about 22 more times they can announce a map review and torment us by making it the wrong one.

 

[sofonias2000100]

How is the ark of the covenant not an art piece? People regularly take pilgrimage it just to see the church it is located at. Even if the claim is disputed you can put it down as a regiionaly known artifact.

 

[Zarnek]

I see that you guys changed how flags are presented in the country screen, making them static instead of waving. Maybe I´m in the minority but I kinda like the previous desing better for the new one looks a little bit ''bland''. Would it be possible for a game option to be made so players can choose which one of the two they prefer?
That would be supper cool

 

[MrNewVegas]

Is that opening paragraph AI slop?

 

[ItsBenter]

View attachment 1269579View attachment 1269580
I see that you guys changed how flags are presented in the country screen, making them static instead of waving. Maybe I´m in the minority but I kinda like the previous desing better for the new one looks a little bit ''bland''. Would it be possible for a game option to be made so players can choose which one of the two they prefer?
That would be supper cool

Modularity for ui would be nice... Especially for mods