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Tinto Flavour #12 - 4th of April 2025 - Ilkhanate & Persia & Chagatai & Rise of Timur

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays in which we take a look at the flavour content of the super secret Project Caesar!

Today will be an interesting day since we will be taking a look at the content we have for the Persian/Iranian region, including the Ilkhanate IO, and also at the content related to the Rise of Timur situation, which includes the flavour for the Chagatai Khanate.

Let’s start a bit differently today by first looking at the Īlkhānān, the in-game flavour name of the most commonly used Ilkhanate IO:

As usual, take all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.

Ilkhanate Tooltip.png
All IOs have a quick-access button, a feature we call control groups, with their own icon (which, in the case of unique IOs, is unique, as you may see). This is the overview tooltip of the Ilkhanate.

Ilkhanate Panel.png

This is the Ilkhanate IO panel, where you can see its status, members, and possible actions.

Ilkhanate Map.png

And this is the starting situation of the Ilkhanate, with the three main contenders (Jalayirids, Hüleguids, and Gurgan) in blue, and all its members in green color.

The reign and death of Abu Sa'id Bahadur Khan, last Ilkhan of the Borjigin dynasty, led to a power vacuum in the Ilkhanate, with several contenders trying to claim the title of Ilkhan for themselves while also trying to restore the old order over the lands ruled by the Ilkhans.

We’re portraying this convoluted political situation through different mechanics.

In order to be able to restore the Ilkhanate in its full glory, you need to be one of the Claimants to the Īlkhānān, a ‘Special Status’ (a feature available for all IOs; more about this next week, in the HRE TT):
Ilkhanate Claimants1.png

Ilkhanate Claimants2.png

Ilkhanate Special Status.png

This is a good example of our lovely nested tooltips. The yellow texts are hoverable features, while the blue texts are game concepts. I took the screenshots in the same sequence, but you could go even deeper, and hover over the International Organization game concept, for a further explanation.

There is a way to become a Claimant to the Īlkhānān, through IO action Claim the Īlkhānān:
Ilkhanate Claim the Ilkhanan.png

By being Claimant to the Īlkhānān, you will get access to this special CB, which can be used against other members of the Ilkhanate, making it easier and more straight-forward to conquer them:
Ilkhanate CB Unify Ilkhanate.png

All members of the Ilkhanate also have access to this other CB, that in case of victory, allows to remove the Claimant to the Īlkhānān to the status from the objective country:
Ilkhanate CB Refuse False Claimant.png

If you end up being the only Claimant to the Īlkhānān, you will automatically become its leader (this is something that we want to change, so it becomes an action in the Main Actions panel, to make it more clear for the player). By becoming Leader of the Īlkhānān, you may be able to unify the IO into a proper country once again:
Ilkhanan Form Ilkhanan1.png

Ilkhanate Oldschool.png

There’s a broken tooltip there, which has already been reported as a bug; the second condition is that there aren’t any countries with the status Claimant to the Īlkhānān. You also need to control 75% of the locations owned by all the members of Ilkhanate IO in order to form the country; the IO will disappear the moment you form it, too.

On a different track, ff you are a Persian member of the Ilkhanate, you also have the opportunity to fight your way towards unifying the region in a completely different way, with this CB:
Ilkhanate CB Shed the Shackles.png

The Ilkhanate may cease to exist if:
  1. All its members are conquered by a country not a member of the IO.
  2. There aren’t a Leader or Claimants of the Ilkhanate.

These are the main contenders for the Ilkhanate at the start of the game:
Country Selection Jalayirids.png

Country Selection Huleguids.png

Country Selection Gurgan.png

The Persian/Iranian countries that are part of the Ilkhanate have their own flavour content available:

The lands of Persia have always been situated in a privileged position, serving as a point of contact between the West and the East and on the path of many trade routes. These lands have thus also served as a hub for exchange of ideas, cultures, and faiths, with Zoroastrianism, Islam, Christianity, and even Buddhism permeating among its population.

The Iranian peoples are thus world people, and Persia has also been the birthplace of many great empires in the past, from the Achaemenids to the Sasanians. The recent Mongolian invasion and the establishment of the Īlkhānān have imposed on them foreign rule, but the Iranian peoples are ready to rise once again.

For instance, you have advances like these:
Advance Sasanian Heritage.png

Advance Silk Road.png

There are in total 21 different advances for the Persian countries.

There are also special buildings like the Ṣafawiyya Order Hall and the Ḡilmān Barracks, and special units like the Kızılbaş Skirmisher and the Ḡilmān.

This is the formable for Persia, and how it would look like:
Persia.png

Persia2.png

Let’s now take a look at one of the main contenders in Central Asia, the Chagatai Horde:

The great Činggis Khān managed to forge a great empire for all Mongolian peoples, bringing into his fold great swathes of land from Europe to China. All people learned to fear the sound of the Mongolian armies galloping and the might and power of the Great Khān.

As heirs of his legacy, the dream of bringing back the glory of the greatest Mongolian Horde is still alive.

Country Selection Chagatai.png

Mongolian countries (which also include countries involved in the Ilkhanate IO, such as the Jalayirids or the Hüleguids) have a ton of content available, both for being Steppe Hordes, and also specific Mongolian content. We aren’t going to reveal today most of it, since this is already a meaty Tinto Flavour, and we still have to take a look in the future to the Golden Horde, which also has unique content; but this is an overview of it:
Government Type Content.png

These are some of the most relevant features for the early game:
Advance Steppe Slave Raiding.png

Reform Legacy of Cinggis Khan.png

Advance Horse Lords.png

Unit Horse Archers.png

Unit A Urughs.png

Let’s now take a look at the content for the Situation The Rise of Timur. It can happen to you if you start the game with Chagatai or any of its subjects. But if you start the game with Barlas, one of these subjects, you will find this lovely baby in your court:
Bay Timur1.png

Baby Timur2.png

Trait Prodigy.png

Apparently this baby might be a Prodigy!

There are some events about the childhood and adolescence of Temür, and if he gets to the adult age, this event will trigger:
Rise of Temur.png

This event can fire initially not only for Barlas, but for Chagatai or any of its subjects, firing then a follow-up information event for all the rest, in which the player will get the chance to choose to change into the Timurids country if there were not initially playing the chosen country and the Timurids is AI. This gives a bit of variation on the starting situation of Timur while also ensuring that the player can always follow the Timurid path if they are playing in the area.

Temür has several traits, but this is the most important:
The Scourge from Central Asia.png

The chosen country will change, becoming the Timurid Horde:
Timurid Horde.png

And the Situation itself will appear:
Rise of Temur Panel.png

The counters for enemies kills and cities razed are there just for flavour, they don’t have any mechanical purpose.

The End Requirements make the situation likely to last for the entire life of Temür:
Rise of Temur End Requirements.png


These are the requirements to form Mongolia, BTW:
Form Mongolia.png

The first of the actions, Plan Invasion, has this effect:
Plan Invasion.png

Plan Invasion2.png

Rise of Temur CB.png

If you are able to unify a region, the second action, ‘Select Core Region’, will appear:
Rise of Timur Select Core Region.png

Rise of Temur Select Core Region2.png

Rise of Temur Select Core Region3.png

After having selected a Core Region, a third action will unlock:
Rise of Temur Reform into Monarchy.png

Which, in case of being selected, will make you a Settled Country, with the Monarchy Government type, and the Rank of Empire. This might potentially be the result:
Timurid Empire.png

A successful Timurid Empire, across Central Asia and Persia!

There is more content and events triggering during the situation, but these are its core features. From here, there’s also more flavour content for the Timurids, related to the historical events and situation that happened to the Empire. This is probably the most important event for them:
Event Integration Iranians.png

Event Integration Iranians2.png

Which unlocks this Major Reform:
Timurid Diwan.png

The Governorship is a unique mechanic of the Timurids, that allows them to have a unique type of subject, for members of the ruling dynasty. This may have its cons, as there might several claimants to the Timurid throne…

…And much more, but that’s all for today! We hope you enjoyed it! Next week will be intense, since on Monday we will have the Tinto Maps Feedback for the Horn of Africa, on Wednesday we will have the Tinto Talks for the Holy Roman Empire, and on Friday we will have the Tinto Flavour for Saxony! Cheers!
 
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People uninformed enough to be confused this way would equally be confused into thinking that "Iran" as a formable has no relation to the "historical" "Persia", and would likely ask "Why can't you form Persia in this game?"

The game, I assume, will not be using endonyms for any European states, or for Christian states outside of Europe (EG Hayastan). We won't see an Italia or Deutchland, and I'll be very surprised if we get Misr instead of Egypt or Ulug Ulus instead of Golden Horde. The decision to randomly use endonyms in some places is, I think, stranger than the decision to use exonyms, particularly in places where the transliteration being used is academic rather than communicative.
I agree, and it might be helpful if there was flavourtext on the option to form Iran which mentions something like "This ancient empire, often known as Persia to those in the west..." to help those who aren't aware learn something new.

Ultimately I'd love it if there were an option for naming every tag by either the common English name exonym, English endonym, or native-language endonym (Transliterated to Latin characters, perhaps) so nobody had anything to disagree about (I'm sure we'd find a way, actually) That's definitely more work than I'd expect, though - especially on release - and like all Paradox games, changes to tag names will probably be some of the first mods which appear.

What I want to see from the base game is consistency. An option of Exonym/English Endonym/Transliterated Native Endonym should be picked and stuck to across all tags. I have some example tag names here, without titles like "The kingdom of" which are determined in game, and what their names might be in different schemes for a brief comparison of what one might expect from each.

ExonymEnglish (Localization Language) EndonymNative-Language (Transliterated) Endonym
EnglandEnglandEngland
Persia*Iran*Eran*
ItalyItalyItalia
Egypt*?*Misr*
Germany?Deutchland
China*Middle Kingdom*Zhongguo*
IroquoisHaudenosauneeHaudenosaunee
EthiopiaAbyssinia(?)Ḥabashat(?)
* Would probably be displayed using the ruling dynasty name in most cases.

While the first option would no doubt be the easiest for the devs to implement, it's my least favourite. Some names are considered derogatory by some portion of the groups they represent, and it's just not that immersive to me to refer to the nation by a name your people would never call it.

The Transliterated native language option might be the second easiest to implement, and I like it, though it does come with a lot of unfamiliarity to the majority of English speakers. One issue might be that some tags do not have surviving endonyms, but otherwise transliterating known names shouldn't be too difficult.

The English endonym option is by far the hardest to implement, as the endonym may still be obscure to some people even when translated - and now it would also be unfamiliar for the original language, too. There may be no good, direct translation on existing endonyms which would be recognised or there may be no endonym as above. However it may be the option with the best of both sides if these issues can be overcome by the devs. (Though whatever solution they use should also be applied as consistently as it can be)

Of course there's the fourth option of even using the character sets of the native languages for endonyms, but as most users cannot understand every language on the map, and likely wouldn't be able to differentiate some tags in other character sets, that seems like a bad idea for anything more than a gimmick and doesn't seem worth considering seriously.

(Edit: Tried to clarify some points I had)
 
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I agree, and it might be helpful if there was flavourtext on the option to form Iran which mentions something like "This ancient empire, often known as Persia to those in the west..." to help those who aren't aware learn something new. Ultimately I'd love it if there were an option for naming every tag by either the common English name exonym, English endonym, or native-language endonym (Transliterated to Latin characters, perhaps) so nobody had anything to disagree about (I'm sure we'd find a way, actually) That's definitely more work than I'd expect, though - especially on release - and like all Paradox games, changes to tag names will probably be some of the first mods which appear.

What I want to see from the base game is consistency. An option of Exonym/English Endonym/Transliterated Native Endonym should be picked and stuck to across all tags. Personally I think the best option for the English localized version of the game would be that second option, though it does have the most challenges. There might be no English form of the endonym, or only exonyms are known because the original was never recorded. In those cases it's probably best to go with the best known English name if it's not derogatory, but I can see the argument for sticking with an endonym even if it might be obscure to an average English speaker.

I've put some examples below of what the options might look like for some example tags, and some of the difficulties sticking to one of the options. It would be difficult to be consistent. The easiest would be to stick to exonyms, but that comes with downsides like sometimes being derogatory to the people the name refers to and lacking the immersion of having the name be what your people would call their polity.
ExonymEnglish EndonymNative-Language Endonym (Transliterated)
EnglandEnglandEngland
Persia*Iran*Eran*
ItalyItalyItalia
Egypt?*Misr*
Germany?Deutchland
China*Middle Kingdom*Zhongguo*
IroquoisHaudenosauneeHaudenosaunee
* Would probably be displayed using the ruling dynasty name in most cases.
I personally would prefer endonyms in whichever language the game is in or even just the transliterations, it makes for a more immersive experience. It can be confusing when you first start out but it doesn't take long to learn Misr is Egypt by context and once you learn it the info sticks pretty easy
 
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People uninformed enough to be confused this way would equally be confused into thinking that "Iran" as a formable has no relation to the "historical" "Persia", and would likely ask "Why can't you form Persia in this game?"

The game, I assume, will not be using endonyms for any European states, or for Christian states outside of Europe (EG Hayastan). We won't see an Italia or Deutchland, and I'll be very surprised if we get Misr instead of Egypt or Ulug Ulus instead of Golden Horde. The decision to randomly use endonyms in some places is, I think, stranger than the decision to use exonyms, particularly in places where the transliteration being used is academic rather than communicative.
Personally I think that Persia being called Iran makes more sense because nowdays we all call it Iran, they are the same thing yes, but because we are playing the game from a 21st century perspective I think that's more appropriate to call it as such, Persia is also good but for english speakers(and westeners) it fits more for an ancient time setting, Egypt for example has always been called Egypt in english be it ancient or modern and aa such it makes sense to be called as such, India is tricky though, personally I would jsut call it India even if Bharat is the official name in English everybody still call it India, but because there are three versions of India(muslim, Hindu and Mughal) I think it's fine to use Bharat
 
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The fashion in the pics seems very anachronistic,Mughal style and also the faces of the persons look too Middle Eastern while they should have a more Mongol look there was a big Turkic and Mongol influx on Persia and Middle East that time.Below some fashion suggestions for Ilkhanate and Timurids:
imagesIlkh.jpg

IlkhanidHorseArcher.jpg

Mu'nis_al-ahrar_Frontipiece,_1341.jpg
Arghun_in_Tārīkh-i_Jahān-Gushā_(reconstruction_2).jpg
imagesarm.jpg

DiezAlbumsArmedRiders_I.jpg

MS._DIEZ_A._Folio_70.jpg

b12bd315c9d448f4989e40d7b8b7f230.jpg

ef1c1557324b80eec08c57ce99762952.jpg
1706453272_429_BATTLE-OF-KULIKOVO-FIELD.jpg

3dbea2ade4bc2ab1519820a5d9ee2025.jpg
 

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An option of Exonym/English Endonym/Transliterated Native Endonym should be picked and stuck to across all tags.
I agree most of the way here. The only sense that I disagree is that instances where the player can manually rename their own country (EG, Byzantium/Rome/etc) should still exist under the player's control, and I have no problems with extending that same customization to other countries.
downsides like sometimes being derogatory to the people the name refers to
Here's where things get particularly tricky.

There's not only cases where it becomes derogatory. There are cases where there are multiple endonyms, and using one is considered as derogatory by some of that group, and as a term of self-identification by others. There's already been at least five instances of that in the endonyms used for cultures ingame that I've noticed, but I'll refrain from calling them out because I don't like internet arguments, and the degree of nationalism attached to the terms make it likely to draw out people with strong views and questionable historical sources. This is a particularly stubborn point when a term is historical to a people, but no longer used by some of that people.

Persia itself is one of the "less" nationalistic examples of a similar issue. Many people are very proud of calling themselves Persian (notably three of the professors I've had when I was at university), because of the historical associations that carries in English. The use of 'Iran' in political circles has been a very serious debate in Iranian intellectuals outside of Iran, particularly because 'Persian' was often viewed as a more narrow term that didn't lump in all Iranic peoples, and so adopting 'Iranian' became a way to subsume those other groups under the banner of a majority culture.

The debate over whether or not "Iranian" is an oppressive term used to devalue Iranic minorities or "Persian" is an oppressive term used to deindigenize the cultural rights of Iranic peoples is the less contentious topic I'm willing to acknowledge on these forums.

To be blunt, I think that if some inconsistency can avoid some of the hotter-button topics, then that's just a practical solution. That seems to be the rationale behind a lot of the choices; endonyms are being less commonly used by the devs for North American groups, and more commonly used by the devs for countries that just don't exist or don't have modern groups associated with them*. That's kind of fine, in my mind.

...I'll admit that the only reason I called it a "stranger" decision earlier was because the inconsistency bugs me. I actually think it's a pretty reasonable decision.

*With opinons on the matter, obviously. You'd be hard pressed to find a German upset about their very long list of exonyms.
 
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I know current Marxistoid-adjacent historiography dislikes The Great Man concept, where extraordinary individuals can have a decisive effect in history. Nevertheless, it would be nice if events like the Rise of Timur would be made more dynamic, like Napoleon type of characters appearing dynamically and having a disruptive effect on the game. I think they would add quite the narrative flavor to the game, specially if they oppose the human player plans, they would make kinda good adversaries. Of course, they should be rare, that's because they are extraordinary men after all. In many games, they would simply not appear or not be so disruptive.
 
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Flags and Coats of Arms for Armenian countries.


Duchy of Ani

Coat of arms Mkhargrdzeli/ Zakarid

Flag_of_Zakarid_Armenia.png

Holy_Mother_of_God_church_in_Geghard_-_details_01.png

2009-09-02_12-58-51-makaravank-008.JPG

Duchy of Amberd
Coat of arms Vachutian
468424263_2231841587197395_9114659078924170621_n.jpg

Duchy of Vayots Dzor
Coat of arms of Proshyan
Coat_of_arms_of_the_Proshyans.jpg


https://arpiar-ar.blogspot.com/2013/07/blog-post_5549.html
Duchy of Tsar
Coat of arms of Dopyans
?????????????????????
-----------------------
Duchy of
Khachen
Royal_Standard_of_the_Principality_of_Khachen_(1214-1261).svg.png

Duchy of
Syunik
Coat of arms of Orbelian
Selim_Caravanserai_3.jpg

Duchy of Artaz
Amatuni
Zrzut ekranu 2025-04-04 221725.png

Duchy of Rshtunik/Akdamar
The Sefedinyans dynasty is a branch of the Artsruni dynasty that rules the Rshtunik Province, so they may use the Artsruni coat of arms.
Արծրունիների_զինանշանը.jpg

Duchy of Sasun

Sasun was ruled by a branch of the Mamikonian (Tornikyan) dynasty, it is likely that the Holo dynasty that later took power may have been descendants of the previous dynasty.
Fictitious_flag_of_Mamikonians.svg.png


Duchy of Herher
Shahurnetsi
Zrzut ekranu 2025-04-04 234601.png

 
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I've been wondering about this since previous maps, and I guess this is a good place to bring it up again. Why is Iran's population so tiny compared to Chagatai?


We’re literally seeing neighboring counties with almost identical climate and fertility, but completely different population numbers. In one case, there's a province in Chagatai with 117,000 people, right next to an Iranian one with only 10,697 — that’s more than 10 times the difference. In another spot, it's 94,524 vs 3,871.


What’s even weirder is that this sharp population divide follows the exact political border between Persia and Chagatai. On one side, massive populations; on the other, practically empty land — despite no real reason for it.
 
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Not all the territories between the Syr Darya and Amu Darya were deserts, there was the Zhana Darya River, which is now dry. In the 14th century, tribes of the Kipchak group roamed here. And in the 16th-18th centuries, the Karakalpaks. The route along the Zhanadrya River was an important route for connecting Khorezm and the lower reaches of the Syr Darya cities. A screenshot from a Google map shows the bed of the dried-up river between the Amu Darya and Syr Darya.View attachment 1276441
Yes it's important for the region that this be at least a corridor. Join me in the Persia Maps Feedback thread and be another voice calling for it :p
Drop the subtitle. You are already struggling with the name 'International Organization' but there is no need for the generic name. It is a name for bespoke mechanics. The only thing connecting them is the container name.
The name appearing here is a portal to access the tooltip explaining the game concept and is consistent with literally everything else in the interface where the category or concept something belongs to appears in the header under the name. I understand the dislike some people have for the name but that's not a good justification for breaking the consistency in UI design (something you are correctly calling for more of generally) or for not explaining the concept.

And I don't understand the position some people have of IOs being so unique they're somehow unconnectable as a group concept. If your friend was new to the game or reading the TTs and asked "what's an International Organization?" you could explain the concept to them and distinguish it from other mechanics; Paradox can equally explain the game concept of IOs in a tooltip.
control groups<-- not sure I like the name?
  • are these dynamic groups?
  • are the tool tips dynamic?
  • Would I have to hold 'Ctrl + 3' until the circle fills?
  • Is the 3 on the icon because it is 'Ctrl + 3'
  • If I empty the 'control group' do I lose the 'quick-access button'?
  • How do I fill a control group?
"Control groups" are the standard name from RTS games (and some other strategy games) and should probably be kept for consistency, assuming it is indeed related to control groups in those games. I assume 3 is on the icon because it's the 3rd control group.
 
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I know current Marxistoid-adjacent historiography dislikes The Great Man concept, where extraordinary individuals can have a decisive effect in history. Nevertheless, it would be nice if events like the Rise of Timur would be made more dynamic, like Napoleon type of characters appearing dynamically and having a disruptive effect on the game. I think they would add quite the narrative flavor to the game, specially if they oppose the human player plans, they would make kinda good adversaries. Of course, they should be rare, that's because they are extraordinary men after all. In many games, they would simply not appear or not be so disruptive.
I'm pretty sure every reputable modern school of history rejects Great Man Theory, especially considering it was first formulated in 1840.
 
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I feel the requirements for restoring Molgolia are a little strict- in particular Guangzhou, since the original Mongol Empire only conquered southern china under Kublai, at a time when the other hordes were already becoming independent after Kublai's civil war. Unifying the steppes while subjugating Russia and Northern China would be a more sensible requirement.
 
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“Great Khāghān Borjigin Temüjin Cinggis, and latergoverned by his son Borjigin Hülegü……”
In history, Hülegü is the grandson of Temüjin, the sixth son of Tolui.
And Timur is not the house of Borjigin.
 
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Honestly for the "invade" system, I'm almost tempted to suggest to just... do away with the cheap conquest and make it cheap subjugation with the "you take whatever you occupy" system accounting for the actual conquering.
 
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