Tinto Flavour #19 - 20th of May 2025

[JoshuaFitzgerald]

The early 1800s were just a continuation, the 18th century is when it started.

100% true, my mistake, apologies! The classic 1800s/18th century mental mix up

You can't use modern food production as an indication and Ireland actually doesn't have that much arable land. While two thirds of its area are agricultural land, only 7 percent is arable land.

Also fair, but it is worth noting that is is uniquely high, number 3 in the world in terms of cereal yield per hectare, only beaten by countries that rely on modern greenhouse production technology which obviously is non-applicable to the time period, and consistently in the top 2 in the global food security index. What I should have said instead of the amount of arable land, it is the efficiency of the land, which is really high from the frankly enormous amount of rainfall and the temperate climate. Of course you can't use modern production numbers and put those on the middle ages, but my argument is simply that there are certain factors (like climate) that are as applicable today as they were in the period of the game.

The fact that the island's modern population is lower today than it was by the end of EU5's timeframe (the only place in the world where this is the case) shows that Ireland's overpopulation was more of an extreme case, rather than something that was bound to happen due to its geography.

Well this is purely from the massive death toll and emigration from the great hunger, while it is debated whether it was an intentional genocide or not, what is not contended is that there were severe errors in managing this event that artificially exacerbated death, and continual economic mismanagement before and after independence until recent decades rather than a purely Malthusian process.

And again, Sweden/Finland's bonus shown here only applies to low population provinces earlier in the game. Sweden and Finland did have significant population growth fairly early on.

But high population growth later in the timeframe is not something that was unique to Ireland and should be handled differently by the game, i.e. by advances.

Both of these things are true, but I would contend that the latter approach should be applied universally. If there was uniquely good management that allowed Finland to grow uniquely quickly, then this good management should need to be emulated by the player and be able to be applied to other countries, rather than abstracted through a unique advance that gives an enormous buff to one region with little explanation beyond that it just happened. If there were underlying structural conditions, such as climate, methods etc, this should also be available to other players to invest in.

I don't feel incredibly strongly about it, but I think that in an ideal world as little should be abstracted arbitrarily as possible, and this allows a very deft player to achieve as much growth in an area like Finland as another area with comparable climate conditions, or a very incompetent player to squander the population growth that occurred during the time.

 

[CommonIberianW]

The only Swedish flavor anyone needs:

My nose involuntarily wrinkled just looking at this picture

 

[matfer13]

it was not a part of denmark in 1337.

it was part of sweden since 1332

And it eventually became part of Sweden again, still why is Scania a Kingdom like Sweden but its considered a fief(vassal)?

 

[Mef]

Both of these things are true, but I would contend that the latter approach should be applied universally. If there was uniquely good management that allowed Finland to grow uniquely quickly, then this good management should need to be emulated by the player and be able to be applied to other countries, rather than abstracted through a unique advance that gives an enormous buff to one region with little explanation beyond that it just happened. If there were underlying structural conditions, such as climate, methods etc, this should also be available to other players to invest in.

It's a cabinet action that can only be used on provinces with a population below 10000. Its purpose is to be able to represent the very low population in 1337, while also allowing Norrland and Finland to get to a population base that makes it follow a more historical population trajectory.
A population of 10000 in a province is still super low... 10000 would be a low number for any individual location.

So this is in no way an "enormous buff" or comparable to adding millions of population in regions with higher populations. It'll only add a few thousand people in each province at best.

 

[Pavía]

Do we get a modifier similar to the Falun copper for the Golconda diamonds? (Only known source of fine diamonds for pretty much the entire span of the game)

Yes!

 

[crowdemon]

Good Tinto Flavour on Sweden.

 

[Katana500]

Can we get an event for Sweden to give Gotland to the Knights if they lose Malta.

This nearly happened historically but the Knights turned it down.

 

[JoshuaFitzgerald]

It's a cabinet action that can only be used on provinces with a population below 10000. Its purpose is to be able to represent the very low population in 1337, while also allowing Norrland and Finland to get to a population base that makes it follow a more historical population trajectory.
A population of 10000 in a province is still super low... 10000 would be a low number for any individual location.

So this is in no way an "enormous buff" or comparable to adding millions of population in regions with higher populations. It'll only add a few thousand people at best.

I actually misread the original post and thought it was per location rather than province. With this context in mind, I agree you are correct and it is much less radical than I thought. While I do think my point stands that abstracting things rather than relying on mechanics is less than ideal, i would like to thank you for correcting me about this! You are completely right that it will have a rather minor impact on the game and couldn't be practically used as a broader way to represent diverging population growth elsewhere.

 

[EvsseH]

Really unnecessary naming, they literally all translate to the exact same thing in English. IMO just annoying for non-Swedish speakers, I get flavour naming special things like the Indian estates which are entirely different words from the regular English, but this is just excessive.

Also isn't "-stånd" at the end already implied by this being the estate tab? You don't have the "Burgher Estate" for regular nations, rather, just the "Burghers"

 

[Javilos Septim]

I'm worried about how little Finnish population there seems to be, only 30,000 in the most densely populated part of the country. Doesn't the playtest show that all Finland become of Swedish majority once it's fully settled? Specially giving how big the immigration bonus is.

 

[Witcher587]

Mostly Catholic Swedes, but there are plenty of different Finnish people as well. Even a few Norse pagans live in the inland forests.

Which is ridiculous. Uppsala fell in 1080s while the last Slavic pagan temple of Arkona fell in 1168 on the island of Rugia(and is better excavated)
Adding Slavic Paganism would be more probable if you already include playing with Norse in Sweden.

edit; few pictures.

Layout of the temple.

The fall of Arkona. Slavic pagan temple. June 15 1168
(I hate Danes and Valdemar I)

 

[Drehgaer]

30/2/31 would be a decent stat spread for the king that looks a bit more natural without changing too much

 

[ArVass]

By the way, shouldn't there also be pagan Sámi and Finns aswell?

 

[Gustis]

If Sweden manages to keep the subject of Skåne and integrate them, will Characters like Tycho Brahe appear for Sweden?

 

[W1NTERMU7E]

Which is ridiculous. Uppsala fell in 1080s while the last Slavic pagan temple of Arkona fell in 1168 on the island of Rugia(and is better excavated)
Adding Slavic Paganism would be more probable if you already include playing with Norse in Sweden.

I second this, would love to have Slavic pagans

 

[Galilleo]

This has been bugging me for a long time that you took away our beloved ducats. I plead for you to correct your sins and return balance to the world.

 

[Zachesjos02]

Mostly Catholic Swedes, but there are plenty of different Finnish people as well. Even a few Norse pagans live in the inland forests.

Is there any flavour for Norse paganism? And for going Norse pagan as Sweden?

 

[Gerto]

I'm really glad to see that there are unique location modifiers. This is probably my favourite feature from Victoria 3. It's a nice way to give certain regions a market advantage while making the game more historically accurate.

 

[Oglesby]

• I appreciate the larger model, but it is now causing clipping.
• I still thing that changing the background from landscape to portrait help the background/model feeling mis framed.
• I feel this is missing information such as tax base, locations (urban/total), etc. that appear to be part of the country tooltip but not this
• If we feel we need the titles of 'Primary Culture' and 'Primary Religion', then I would make their font smaller while increasing the size of their values (Swedish and Catholicism, in this case).
• Align values not strings, break the value string into two if that helps to align things. All the relative percentages should be aligned separate from the absolute values. If you need to keep it as a single value I would reverse them but force the percentage to have a tens digit location (pop) #0.00%, this would at least align the percentage values to help with scanning.
• I dislike the color coding of the character attributes icons, this is done no where else.

• I think the black background for the satisfaction donut chart is jarring. Try either the background color of the 'title' bar that it is placed in or the background color of the privilege list line.
• Right justify 'Satisfaction
• While I appreciate attempting to add depth to the privilege list area, the effect is ruined by having the exact same 'ripples' in the exact same spots on all of them
• If we are not having a second value, remove the | after the Crown power

• I thought that the 'production' icon modifier was the barrel (or is it a crate)? Why is food production modified by a calendar?
• I don't completely follow the 'Implementation indication block'
  • Cannot be removed due to what?
  • Do we need the self-referential listing of the estate privilege when indicating the date? (will hovering over this name open here open the same tooltip?)
  • What is the use of listing the date of implementation? (If there is one please let me know)
  • Is the date the point the implementation started (0 or 1%) or completed (100%)?
    • If it is the latter do we need to indicate both the date it reached 100% and that it is at 100%
• Can we get the same flourished to the flavor section that the events get?

• I realize that this is only one location at a time, but I think that the title feels better with an <and> instead of <or>
• I hope that is a presentation bug on Monthly Development
• Can we decimal align the values?

• Why are these 'requirements for X' instead of 'X costs'?
• Within the boxes attempt to maintain the same level of precision. (i.e. change horse to 0.10 to align with the rest)
• Statistics box
  • Color coding tells me nothing
  • This feels too word, long and listy and would do better with the use of icons and a better layout
  • If you are married with the list at least can we have the numbers align? line up all the least significant digits
• The hundredths for percentages feels like overkill
• The way terrain interaction are indicated (with the two boxes) needs to be relooked at
  • Maybe join the two sections, increase the size of the terrain icon and color code them. Hover for details? (like CK3?)
• "This cavalry unit has +5 initiative, +10% movement speed and +1 combat speed compared to the regular cavalry units of this age."
  • This is where color coding those values makes sense. Having those three green would indicate that they are better than comparable regular cavalry.
• This whole tooltip feels too big. Maybe using the goods parchments like in PMs could reduce the lists to lines.
• Can we use the single person manpower icon that is used for MP buildings? This will help indicate that this isn't a pop-type but an intermediate currency.

• Looking at the other advances it does appear that the added line of the 'age' was removed, yay
• Can we come up with an icon to add to the title bar to indicate this has been researched instead of adding that line?
• Looking at the modifers off all the advances listed
  • 'Distance Cost to Capital' sounds weird, what about 'Distance to Capital Cost'
  • Can we use the 'true minus' character instead of the 'hyphen minus'? This will help with placement and kerning.
  • I think the crate with green plus seems like too much information for an icon modifier, not sure that the + is doing there. The value could be negative. If we need to clarify that it is a production level change then maybe the production is the focus (big central portion of the icon), the 'level change' is the modifier (lower right), and the good is a limiter/classifier (upper left).
    • Crate <main>, + <lower right>, copper <upper left>
    • This would unify all the production increases as they would only differ by classifier

• There is visual conflict between the models and the background and it is hard to determine what is important.
  • If it is the models, then the back ground it too busy.
  • If it is the background, then the models (and badging) are too big. Reduce their size and push them more into the lower corners so we can see the background.
• Having the background with a 'painting' motif while the models do not it makes this feel like a really odd news report with a fake zoom background.

 

[BlackPrince]

Modding teams who care about realism whenever they see Sweden:

- Very nice, nerf everything.