Tinto Flavour #26 - 10th June 2025 - Korea and Manchuria

[Arumdaum]

I'd really like to know where this rumour comes from, because it's about as nonsense as it's sensational - the idea that it was banned "because peasants became too literate" (implied that they would instigate a revolution due to that) sounds like it's made up in the 20th century.

Modern public schooling is a prerequisite for general literacy, regardless of how easy and nice a writing system is to learn.

There was in total a one-time Hangul ban, by Yeonsangun in 1504, importantly - as part of his general crackdown on literary writing as a whole. Yeonsangun banned Hangul in 1504 precisely because of anonymous posters and leaflets making fun of him and criticizing his tyrannical rule were being written and circulated in Hangul in front of the palace gate. It lasted a total of 2 years, after which it was rescinded.

The Sillok states in Yeonsangun 10th year, 7th month, 29th day (1504) that he got really angry after discovering the posters and ordered to find the responsible culprits.

Yeonsangun Ilgi, Volume 56, Year 10 (1504), 12th month, 24th day (庚寅/gyeongin) on the contents of the royal decree explicitly states that because "ignorant people" (어리석은 백성, eoriseogeun baekseong) are using Eonmun to write anonymous slanders against the King and the court, its use must be stopped.

I think the rumor was initially spread on English-speaking social media by Koreaboos in the 2020s, before spreading to a wider audience...

 

[SAmaster]

I think I spy Sakhalin being under the control of Yuan, and I don't think this would at all be the case. The Yuan extracted tributes from the Nivkh people of Sakhalin, this would be better portrayed as a subject relationship. The status of Yuan maps even shows they didn't full understand the local geography as being part of the Japanese archipelago. During the Mongol Invasion of Japan they did aid the Nivkh people in pushing the Ainu off the island (who had traded it back and forth for a while), but this was seen as a separate and concurrent conflict to the invasion of Japan rather than say a northern push. I don't know if you can take tribute from an SoP but that's what I would turn Sakhalin into. Certainly if the Ainu are portraed as such.

 

[SilverMW]

Are we going to get a Tinto Flavour related to (post) colonial nations in the Americas? I hope so, they were rather dull and lacked lots of depth back in EU4, specially considering the interesting and complex histories of places such as New France, New Granada, Colonial Brazil and the Thirteen Colonies. It'd be a shame that colonial nations are just generic and boring entities regardless of what country creates them.

(Sorry if this is out of topic, I just didn't know where else to post it.)

Hasta que pasen todas las revisiones previo al lanzamiento, posiblemente antes o despues de Oceania

For international: Maybe the last-ish region before the official launch alongside Oceania (modern Australia/NZ)

 

[Freshplayer]

So we agree that somewhere down the line the Jurchen people should be renamed to Manchu, you just don't agree with the theory I shared, with honestly is fine.

Do you suggest that the decision to change the name to Manchu should make the integration of the other cultures making up Manchuria easier, or make them accepted for a lot less? If so, which cultures should be included in that sped up integration?

View attachment 1316591

No, I just don't like your reasoning, because I don't think Jurchen was a derogatory term, and the literal understanding of this term went too far. If I did not get it wrong, according to Ulhicun, it just means people of the east. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding. Sorry.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Yes

Will the tendency to Joseon military leaders to sabotage competent underlings in a depraved reverse-patronage system be represented? Ideally it would be something for a player to overcome and replace with a more productive tradition.

 

[22:24]

I'm sure it's been addressed before, but ruler titles (such as those in China, Korea, and Japan) make these events seem a little awkward when addressing the ruler. Yeah, that man's name was Yi Seong-gye, but after he became king he was known as King Taejo... (It's not limited to Asia, either, or this time period, as of course Albert Edward Saxe-Coburg-Gotha just became King Edward VII in 1901!)

A temple name(廟號) is a name given to a king after his death to honour his merits during his lifetime.

It is a Confucian form of royal courtesy that originated in the Shang Dynasty of Chinese history and was used in the Chinese Empire, Korea, and Vietnam.

It is the name used to honour the spirits of the deceased in a tomb.

Titles such as □宗(zōng/jong/tông) and □祖(zǔ/jo/tở), are not used when the king is alive.

Regnal name(尊號) is appropriate.

 

[Arumdaum]

+5% literacy for Hangeul seems somewhat low to me

I'd always heard that Japan had a very high literacy rate for a pre-modern society, with the common estimates being that 40% of men and 10% of women were literate.

According to the Korean Statistical Information Service, using data from the 1930 Japanese census, 37.9% of Korean men over the age of 60 (those born ~1870 or earlier) were literate in Hangul, while 4.7% of women over the age of 60 were Hangul-literate.

Assuming there was no significant increase in Hangul literacy among the middle-aged and elderly in the first two decades of Japanese rule (and I doubt there was, considering there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in literacy between 1930 and 1945) , it seems that the late Joseon period had a similar rate of literacy to Japan.

Not sure how useful this is for EU5, but I can see this information being useful for Vicky 3...

Edit: Here is a Japanese source that gets its numbers using the same 1930 Japanese census numbers. You can see that Hangul literacy is ~35% even for men above 80. The numbers are fairly similar to those between 60-79 and kana literacy is virtually nonexistent.

 

[22:24]

Isn't the 三敎(San Jiao) suited to the EU4, which doesn't have Pop features?

I think just separate them as individual religions for EU5.

But,it would be nice to have a Buddhism for Sinosphere.

Perhaps Buddhist outside of Sinosphere don't believe Buddhism fused with Taoism

 

[tinholt]

Will it be easier to convert Eastern Buddhism to Sanjiao, seeing as Eastern Buddhism is one of its teachings? If so, will there be events for Joseon to iad its transition to Confucianism?

 

[Enku7071]

And the article estimating the population of Goryeo in "Song History" is also just an estimate by an official in the Song envoy's entourage, saying something like, "I think the population of Goryeo is about this much."

"The Korean population was, like, YAY big back then, trust"

 

[Enku7071]

Why not let the player choose from a (curated) list generated by that same system?

From this video, check if it opens because internet within the Great Firewall can be wacky.

 

[tinholt]

Sānjiào hitting Joseon like

 

[Enku7071]

Alright, I just can't stand racist language. Thanks for the heads-up.

I'd suggest you follow the due process by simply reporting the questionable comments and wait for the mods to do their thing.
People like that one Georgian guy got banned (for reasons unknown to me tho), so if that guy's a problem, I'd expect him/her to get banned as well.

 

[Enku7071]

Isn't the 三敎(San Jiao) suited to the EU4, which doesn't have Pop features?

I think just separate them as individual religions for EU5.

which would be ideal, but I don't think that the code allows a Pop to have more than one religion, which will stir up problems down the way if we try to separate them imo.

 

[Sirbab]

We treat these kinds of unnaturalized foreign words as invariable, as these languages don't have the same adjectival rules.

I understand why you guys are doing this, but surely there's a better way than just the location right? It'd be like looking over at Europe, looking at my culture view, and seeing Greece, Hungary, Sweden, instead of the adjectives. Is there not a good way to demonstrate adjective in one word in Japanese?

 

[Arumdaum]

Will the tendency to Joseon military leaders to sabotage competent underlings in a depraved reverse-patronage system be represented? Ideally it would be something for a player to overcome and replace with a more productive tradition.

I think this could just be represented by corruption, low army tradition, and random events that result in the dismissal of a general/admiral...

 

[Oglesby]

Second misspelling, so let me correct you - it's "liturgical"
Think of "literate/literature" + "clergical"

I think this is an odd combination.

It would come from liturgy, which itself would be from old Greek, public (leito-) and works (-ourgos). When going to the adjective form the -ourgos changes to -ourikos.

So liturgical would be 'pertaining to the public rites' and nothing to do with the literature of the clergy.

(sorry, I will get off the where words come from soap box now).

 

[ArVass]

We have a system of regnal names, but unfortunately it's not able to fully handle the complexities of naming for East Asian dynasties.

I mean, this genuinely baffles me. Like, what's the point of a regnal name system, if not to accurately depict the 100% most important instances of strong regnal name traditions...?

This is a bit like creating a Sainthood and Canonization system, but making it in a way that it's incompatible with Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

I think this could just be represented by corruption, low army tradition, and random events that result in the dismissal of a general/admiral...

Corruption isn't a mechanic in this game and low army and navy tradition would be an effect of this tendency rather than a cause. The cause was that the Joeson kingdom at every level of government felt threatened by competence, which is why Yi Sun-Sin kept getting screwed over by his superiors despite, or rather because of, his exceptional skills.

 

[VikingNinja]

Unique advances:

View attachment 1315092​

The Hangeul alphabet was called Hunminjeongeum back then, the name Hangeul was coined by Ju Si-gyeong in 1912.