Tinto Flavour #26 - 10th June 2025 - Korea and Manchuria

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

it also made me wonder if China's population would be lowered.

China's population is currently being nerfed by having the black death hit it just as hard as europe, which is massively ahistorical.

 

[anisfan]

So, I've conducted as wide research as I can about the population of Goryeo in the time of 1337.
I feel sorry that I could not link any of those pages and previous posts that I refered because I'm a low rank user... sob

First of all, let's focus on some easy to find statistics.
In Wikipeida(Goryeo), They are stating that the population of Goryeo Dynasity was vastly about 3M to 5M referencing to Korean History in Maps.

(I can not refer because i am low rank...)
And according to the approximation based on Song's record, It is said that the population of Goryeo can be estimated to be about 2.5M to 3M in 12th century, which means 1100s. The reliability of record itself might be debatable but it is not that far from the guess of Korean History in Maps.

Until here, with these estimations the population of Goryeo in 1337 should be much larger. I think around 4M would be feasible.

---

I'm not sure why PDX picked 2.6M instead of those estimations.
I guess the census of Joseon dynasity might affected it.

Joseon dynasity is well-known for its effort in veritable recording. And they left some records on census.
We can find some of those in Wikipeida page(Joseon), which is saying the population of Joseon was approx. 3.3M in 1519 and I think PDX staffs decided to set this stat more reliable than fore-mentioned records.

The approximation is originaly based on Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty.
However the census of Joseon dynasity is largely doubted in Korean History society.

I refer to a page of Korean History(2002) established by National Institute of Korean History.
Specifically, the topic of the page is Population growth and distribution of late Joseon dynasity.
In the first table of the page, we can find that the population of 1519 is appoximately 3.7M according to Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty.
The 2.6M in 1337 might be feasible if the record is undoubtful.

However in the following paragraphs, it is arguing that the population stated by the Joseon record is largely doubtful. Following the Joseon's census, population growth between 1657-1693 or 1900-1910 and declining between 1810-1900 is unacceptable amount in traditional agricultural society. You can find those in the first figure of the article.

The phenomenon can be explained because the people are taxed based on the census during Joseon dynasity. And they necessarily tryed to not respond to census to evade tax. It can likely be supported by another aspect. One of the ideology of the kings and bureaucrats in Joseon dynasity was 민본주의(民本主義), which means "The people is the base of the nation, so politics should be good for people.", so they might not chase all their people to tax them strictly. There also might be some administration restrictions.

In the second table of the page, it is comparing several previous works on the estimation of the population in Joseon dynasity.
Among them, I guess research B (On Population Estimates of the Yi Dynasty, 1392-1910, Kwon and Jin, 1977) and ①(On the Census in Early Joseon Dynasity, 1977) is rather reliable.

They deemed the 1925 Census of Japanese Government-General of Korea is fully reliable which state the Korean population in that time as 19M. And then set Joseon society as traditional agricultural society, in which the population growth is constant(0.2%~0.4%) and mainly affected by death rate caused by war and infectious disease.
Those two researches stated the population in Korea as of 1392 would be 4.5M and 5.5M respectively.


---

So, in conclusion, I argue that the population of Goryeo in 1337 should be increased to around 3.5M or 4M. I'm not sure because it is in the field of estimation.
At least, it SOULD NOT BE 2.6M.

I hope Paradox staffs find this post well. And I hope my contribution to be the end this debate.

p.s. The 16M population of Vic3 in 1836 is also seems to be based on the study of Kwon and Jin

 

[dhfusd]

I was wondering if Korea's population was nerfed so that it takes a backseat to Europe, and it also made me wonder if China's population would be lowered. But then I remembered that Japan's population is 9.6 million. Korea has never been this underpopulated relative to Japan.

The low-end estimates of 2.5-3 million people are based on a Chinese envoy that visited for a month who said in the same sentence that 1/3 of Koreans were monks, 1/3 were soldiers, and 1/3 were commoners. How could he have accurately known Korea's population?

Modern Korean scholars are considered to be information that Goryeo provided to an envoy of the Song Dynasty
The Goryeodogyeong in the Song Shi (宋史) records facts from Goryeo's founding to the reign of King Yejong
(10th to 12th centuries)
In the Goryeodogyeong of the Song Shi (宋史), regarding the records on Goryeo's population...
It states '男女二百十萬口' meaning a combined population of 2.1 million males and females.
It also writes '兵·民·僧各居其一' indicating that soldiers, commoners, and monks each constitute one-third of the entire population.
This statistical data should be regarded as information provided by Goryeo to the Song Dynasty. Furthermore, Goryeo's population statistics, rather than being accurate household (戶口) census data, were likely based on the number of tax (租稅) or household tax (戶稅) payers. Therefore, they are likely far from the actual population of the time.
Furthermore, if Goryeo's population during that period is taken as 2.1 million (combined male and female), and if soldiers, commoners, and monks each account for one-third, then each group could be considered 700,000. However, this is a vague Chinese-style expression and cannot necessarily be regarded as an account based on precise evidence.
However, even in the Goryeodogyeong it states that "there are seventy Buddhist temples in the royal capital (Wangseong, Kaesong)," thus describing the Kaesong area as a Buddhist city. And due to the policies promoting Buddhism since King Taejo's (太祖) reign, it is believed that there were a considerable number of male and female adherents (or devotees).

 

[J_Master]

View attachment 1316656

*Korea breaks free*
Yuan: What are you doing Step son?

*steppe son

 

[Enku7071]

Why is this event written purposefully biased? Is it because the Player is "meant" to become independent and break free, or is the Yuan overlordship inherently "bad" - other than the monetary fee as with all subjects? It comes off overly biased if you are faced with two options; the text is leading and feels like the "game" will be disappointed if you pick the second option...

I mean, Yuan was rather a dynasty that never cared for the millenia-old civilisation that they just conquered, outsourced their entire bureaucracy while establishing a rigid caste system that prevented the locals from rising up, and then went ahead to raze towns and burn temples when people ended up not actually liking the way they governed (shockers!), all the while the Mongol nobles and leaders within the Empire constantly and ruthlessly fought over each other for more power, which resulted in a string of young emperors getting offed on a regular basis (you don't need me to understand how fucked the whole situation was). In short, the entire Sinosphere was NOT impressed with Yuan, like at all.

So it does makes sense that, as the player is playing with the "will of the nation" (and the player is probably expected to play with the readily available historical route and stuff) it makes sense that the flavour text remains biased.

 

[MinDiuSe]

So, I've conducted as wide research as I can about the population of Goryeo in the time of 1337.
I feel sorry that I could not link any of those pages and previous posts that I refered because I'm a low rank user... sob

First of all, let's focus on some easy to find statistics.
In Wikipeida(Goryeo), They are stating that the population of Goryeo Dynasity was vastly about 3M to 5M referencing to Korean History in Maps.

(I can not refer because i am low rank...)
And according to the approximation based on Song's record, It is said that the population of Goryeo can be estimated to be about 2.5M to 3M in 12th century, which means 1100s. The reliability of record itself might be debatable but it is not that far from the guess of Korean History in Maps.

Until here, with these estimations the population of Goryeo in 1337 should be much larger. I think around 4M would be feasible.

---

I'm not sure why PDX picked 2.6M instead of those estimations.
I guess the census of Joseon dynasity might affected it.

Joseon dynasity is well-known for its effort in veritable recording. And they left some records on census.
We can find some of those in Wikipeida page(Joseon), which is saying the population of Joseon was approx. 3.3M in 1519 and I think PDX staffs decided to set this stat more reliable than fore-mentioned records.

The approximation is originaly based on Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty.
However the census of Joseon dynasity is largely doubted in Korean History society.

I refer to a page of Korean History(2002) established by National Institute of Korean History.
Specifically, the topic of the page is Population growth and distribution of late Joseon dynasity.
In the first table of the page, we can find that the population of 1519 is appoximately 3.7M according to Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty.
The 2.6M in 1337 might be feasible if the record is undoubtful.

However in the following paragraphs, it is arguing that the population stated by the Joseon record is largely doubtful. Following the Joseon's census, population growth between 1657-1693 or 1900-1910 and declining between 1810-1900 is unacceptable amount in traditional agricultural society. You can find those in the first figure of the article.

The phenomenon can be explained because the people are taxed based on the census during Joseon dynasity. And they necessarily tryed to not respond to census to evade tax. It can likely be supported by another aspect. One of the ideology of the kings and bureaucrats in Joseon dynasity was 민본주의(民本主義), which means "The people is the base of the nation, so politics should be good for people.", so they might not chase all their people to tax them strictly. There also might be some administration restrictions.

In the second table of the page, it is comparing several previous works on the estimation of the population in Joseon dynasity.
Among them, I guess research B (On Population Estimates of the Yi Dynasty, 1392-1910, Kwon and Jin, 1977) and ①(On the Census in Early Joseon Dynasity, 1977) is rather reliable.

They deemed the 1925 Census of Japanese Government-General of Korea is fully reliable which state the Korean population in that time as 19M. And then set Joseon society as traditional agricultural society, in which the population growth is constant(0.2%~0.4%) and mainly affected by death rate caused by war and infectious disease.
Those two researches stated the population in Korea as of 1392 would be 4.5M and 5.5M respectively.


---

So, in conclusion, I argue that the population of Goryeo in 1337 should be increased to around 3.5M or 4M. I'm not sure because it is in the field of estimation.
At least, it SOULD NOT BE 2.6M.

I hope Paradox staffs find this post well. And I hope my contribution to be the end this debate.

p.s. The 16M population of Vic3 in 1836 is also seems to be based on the study of Kwon and Jin

But if they weren't taxing the people, the game should also not tax them and not bring them to war so keep the population low in the game to make it more historical

 

[anisfan]

But if they weren't taxing the people, the game should also not tax them and not bring them to war so keep the population low in the game to make it more historical

That's a good point. But I think it can be better implemented with form of tax rate and control which is already a part of the game. The population should still be there whether I tax them or not.

But that was a really good point.

 

[Zhaendall]

Korea seems nice and simple to start the game with. I think i'll start by playing it when i get the game

 

[crowdemon]

Good breakdown on Korea and Manchuria.

 

[Catsley]

In the description of the Yeren Jurchen, "less complex societies" would be a better wording than "less evolved societies."

 

[DONGHAIZHIDABIE]

What is it in the red circle?

 

[PEliaz]

What is it in the red circle? View attachment 1316911

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_teachings

 

[DONGHAIZHIDABIE]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_teachings

Shouldn't the Three Teachings include Eastern Buddhism in some sense?

 

[Sizvahstar]

I mean, Yuan was rather a dynasty that never cared for the millenia-old civilisation that they just conquered, outsourced their entire bureaucracy while establishing a rigid caste system that prevented the locals from rising up, and then went ahead to raze towns and burn temples when people ended up not actually liking the way they governed (shockers!), all the while the Mongol nobles and leaders within the Empire constantly and ruthlessly fought over each other for more power, which resulted in a string of young emperors getting offed on a regular basis (you don't need me to understand how fucked the whole situation was). In short, the entire Sinosphere was NOT impressed with Yuan, like at all.

So it does makes sense that, as the player is playing with the "will of the nation" (and the player is probably expected to play with the readily available historical route and stuff) it makes sense that the flavour text remains biased.

Thanks for the explanation, I had no idea the subjugation went that far!

 

[Glariamn]

Will the Hangeul and Manchu alphabet advances change your court language? I feel like they ought to. Before adoption Korea would have been using Classical Chinese as a court language, and the Manchu were writing in Mongolian. Adoption of these new scripts should provide a useful literacy boost but also change your court language, with whatever diplomatic effect that may have.

They still very much spoke Early Middle Korean at court.

Hangeul isn't spoken, neither are Manchu alphabet or Classical Chinese.

Like how learning the Latin alphabet doesn't get someone to automatically know Turkish

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Do you change religions when becoming Joseon? The coup was essentially Neo-Confucian in nature so it would be weird if you aren’t forced to oppose Buddhism when taking it.

 

[Arumdaum]

But if they weren't taxing the people, the game should also not tax them and not bring them to war so keep the population low in the game to make it more historical

The government wasn't intentionally undercounting people in its censuses to reduce the tax burden by randomly taxing some people while not taxing others. It was simply the best the government could do with the limited technology and state capacity of the time.

The vast majority of societies during the period of the game wouldn't have been conducting censuses and it is likely that tax evasion was widespread. Should we be reducing everyone else's population because of that?

 

[Craksus]

Will the Hangeul and Manchu alphabet advances change your court language? I feel like they ought to. Before adoption Korea would have been using Classical Chinese as a court language, and the Manchu were writing in Mongolian. Adoption of these new scripts should provide a useful literacy boost but also change your court language, with whatever diplomatic effect that may have.

Logogram - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Classical Chinese - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Classical Chinese act like latin language but it is not language, it is Character.
because unlike 26 alphabet, thousands chinese characters have own meanings.
ex) A : mountain B : Boobs C : bow D : belly

so other east asia country have own their language but can communicate with chinese people or each other by written conversation.

 

[Freshplayer]

Will the Hangeul and Manchu alphabet advances change your court language? I feel like they ought to. Before adoption Korea would have been using Classical Chinese as a court language, and the Manchu were writing in Mongolian. Adoption of these new scripts should provide a useful literacy boost but also change your court language, with whatever diplomatic effect that may have.

I don’t really think Manchu script is better than Jurchen script.

Instead, they are different orthographies based on different dialects: Jurchen script was based on the language used by Haixi Jurchen and Jin Dynasty, while Manchu was Jianzhou Jurchen and the Qing Dynasty.

 

[MinDiuSe]

The government wasn't intentionally undercounting people in its censuses to reduce the tax burden by randomly taxing some people while not taxing others. It was simply the best the government could do with the limited technology and state capacity of the time.

The vast majority of societies during the period of the game wouldn't have been conducting censuses and it is likely that tax evasion was widespread. Should we be reducing everyone else's population because of that?

They could under-report them to leave more money for themselves.