Tinto Flavour #3 - 24th of January 2025 - Novgorod

[Cuke]

It's confusing topic that's why I ask paradox not to confuse it even more.

Ruthenia = latinized name for Rus.
Ruthenian = language culture that gave rise to Belarus and Ukraine, seperated from Russian language.
Ruthenia =/= Ruthenian Language
----
Russian =/= Ruthenian
Ruthenia/Rus =/= Russia(15thc. state)
Ruthenia/Rus = Kievan Rus
Ruthenia/Rus = a synonym for word "land/state" 1e.g. Novgorodian Rus/ Muscovite Rus/ Red Rus/ Black Rus/ White Rus/ Polotskan Rus.

Hm, I think I see where you went wrong.
Ruthenia = latinized name for Rus.
Russia = graecized name for Rus.
Ruthenia = Russia = Rus
2 exonyms, 1 endonym. The rule of thumb is to use English exonyms instead of local endonyms for high-level concepts. Germany, not Deutschland. Sweden, not Sverige. Manchuria, not whatever-locals-ask-for. And conequently, the corresponding adjective in flavour text is Russian.

 

[Cuke]

Suggestion - Option to form Russian Culture

Hello, I don't know if this is just me but I wish, when forming Russia, that we had the option to unify the Novgorodian, Severian and potential Moscovite cultures in order to form the collective "Russian" culture. It just feels more aesthetically...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia! As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

There's plenty of other posts on the matter than these two, but as I'm finding them by looking through my own postings, you'll just get the earliest entries from me in the threads.

My point is that there's plenty of disagreement, but no actual argument as to why we should look at Russian culture as primeval and not (also) the outcome of nationbuilding and repression.

There was similar discussion in at least one EU4 thread, but I struggle to find it.

Hm, thanks. I guess if I don't get what you're saying then it means I don't know what the Russian essentialist narrative is.
Basically, you're saying that a lot of people disagree with Spanish or Swedish or Polish non-essentialism and provide no counter-arguments as to why modern-day cultures should be the outcome of 1337's fragmented cultures.

 

[Jjjace55]

This is from our discussion:

Will it at least be possible for the flag to change depending on circumstance?

 

[Danskjävel]

Hm, thanks. I guess if I don't get what you're saying then it means I don't know what the Russian essentialist narrative is.
Basically, you're saying that a lot of people disagree with Spanish or Swedish or Polish non-essentialism and provide no counter-arguments as to why modern-day cultures should be the outcome of 1337's fragmented cultures.

I outline the idea in the post you're quoting. It's the idea that any culture has an essence that runs untouched through the centuries and is not the result of human or other intervention.

In this case I'm referring to the idea that Russian is some overarching and primeval culture, and not the effect of repression and nationbuilding while cultures like Ukrainian or Belorussian is just some minor spinoffs that's been lead astray before conforming to their "natural state".

Obviously this happens with other cases than Russian too, but it's just fairly obvious in the forum that a certain demographic disagrees with me, but never provides counter arguments.

It's a basic concept in ethnology, cultural anthropology, the study of nationalism and so on.

 

[Oglesby]

someone suggested rounding the estate satisfaction number to the lower integer. I think this is a great way of dividing the amount of numbers by 2 without losing much info. Could also have the value with decimals appear when you hover over, as sometimes it is important to know the exact value of the satisfaction.

I think it would depend on the rate of change of the values. As these are things that have an equilibrium point (the second value) and the current state it might be that the change has a tendency of being small ( < 0.1% ) so they are using the hundredths to make the ticking visible. At most I would reduce to the tenths.

 

[Avlakim]

I outline the idea in the post you're quoting. It's the idea that any culture has an essence that runs untouched through the centuries and is not the result of human or other intervention.

In this case I'm referring to the idea that Russian is some overarching and primeval culture, and not the effect of repression and nationbuilding while cultures like Ukrainian or Belorussian is just some minor spinoffs that's been lead astray before conforming to their "natural state".

Obviously this happens with other cases than Russian too, but it's just fairly obvious in the forum that a certain demographic disagrees with me, but never provides counter arguments.

It's a basic concept in ethnology, cultural anthropology, the study of nationalism and so on.

I think the reason Russia is the only formable in the region is because, like the devs said, they're focusing on historically accurate content at least until release. That's why you don't have formables like "Severia" or "Champagne". It doesn't have anything to do with essentialism (to be honest, I had no idea what that was either), just simplification to have kingdom/empire sized powerblocks appearing as the game progresses. If Novgorod becomes the dominant power in Eastern Europe it will still form Russia, sure, but it will be a alternative version of it (like being a republic or having Novgorodian culture for example) with hopefully a different flag (and not the Muscovite one like in eu4). But hey, on the bright side, at least the devs confirmed you can form the Kingdom of Ruthenia.

 

[Throwaway7]

So you have a mechanic to add "Sovereign Lord" to Novgorods name. Does it stay if you form Russia, creating "Sovereign Lord Republic of Russia"?(Although I guess "Sovereign Lady" since the word Russia is feminine while Novgorod is musculine, but that would probably be hard to implement in a game that's based on English)

 

[Bisonmask]

I outline the idea in the post you're quoting. It's the idea that any culture has an essence that runs untouched through the centuries and is not the result of human or other intervention.

In this case I'm referring to the idea that Russian is some overarching and primeval culture, and not the effect of repression and nationbuilding while cultures like Ukrainian or Belorussian is just some minor spinoffs that's been lead astray before conforming to their "natural state".

Obviously this happens with other cases than Russian too, but it's just fairly obvious in the forum that a certain demographic disagrees with me, but never provides counter arguments.

It's a basic concept in ethnology, cultural anthropology, the study of nationalism and so on.

I understand the contemporary reasons this would upset you but the reason that the gameplay of a history game privileges the narrative of the modern regional hegemon is because that state is the successor of the historic regional hegemon. It would be like an Irish person being upset that the main formable in the British isles is called Great Britain because that's the name of the other island

The reason nobody argues with you is because the issue isn't that your position is disagreeable it's that the argument is pointless. Very few people on this forum think Russia should be in the game so that nationalists can live out their fantasies of storming Kyiv but even fewer people think Russia as a tag shouldn't be in the game to prevent that possibility

 

[Dankpeas]

So is it possible for novgorod to covert to catholicisim through the debate event?

 

[Oglesby]

• Veche Republic Tooltip
  • If we are going to use polity specific names for estates shouldn't we also change the estate name in modifiers?
    • The Veche Republic should give Boyars Power instead of Nobles Power
    • The description calls them Nobility too
  • Is there a reason that Estate is used in the Satisfaction equilibrium line?
  • Does it need to be self referential (Veche Republic implemented on...)?
  • Why is Major Reform listed twice?
  • Are they Peasants or Commoners, it seems to flip back and forth.
• Kormlenije Tooltip
  • I prefer the usage of 'towards' instead of 'to' that was use in previous screen shots
    • Monthly Progress towards Centralization
    • Icon appears to show decentralization as the arrows are moving away from the center
  • The 'icon' for Maximum Tax for Noble Estate is getting a bit busy. I see what you did, took Noble, added Cap in the modifier location for icons, then added coins to try to indicate it was for tax.
• Ivan's Hundred
  • Why doesn't the crown power icon follow the estate power icons? What is the extra thing below the 'power' lightning bolt?
  • I prefer the Trade Maintenance icon from the last TT (Fish apple arrows, sub coins)
• Funding the Ushkuyniks
  • Why is the base icon for Privateer different? Consistency is key, either both have the shield or neither should
• Northern Center of Arts
  • Another pop icon that we will need to play, what hat are they wearing.
  • I have noticed that we keep changing the 'verbiage' of Caps
    • Trade Capacity
    • Maximum Tax for Noble Estate
    • Max Literacy
    • Possible number of Artists

Again sorry for flood of text

 

[H.A.S.E.V.I.R.]

Why the choice to use American English standard rather than the proper spelling?

Because english is a second, third or fourth language for most people here. Thus the "american" ie simplified english.

 

[Trepanator]

Because english is a second, third or fourth language for most people here. Thus the "american" ie simplified english.

English for simple people indeed.

 

[H.A.S.E.V.I.R.]

So is it possible for novgorod to covert to catholicisim through the debate event?

Or sweden to convert, most likely both declare themselves the winner and a war starts... so much for the "forever peace".

 

[Druplesnubb]

I think the reason Russia is the only formable in the region is because, like the devs said, they're focusing on historically accurate content at least until release. That's why you don't have formables like "Severia" or "Champagne". It doesn't have anything to do with essentialism (to be honest, I had no idea what that was either), just simplification to have kingdom/empire sized powerblocks appearing as the game progresses. If Novgorod becomes the dominant power in Eastern Europe it will still form Russia, sure, but it will be a alternative version of it (like being a republic or having Novgorodian culture for example) with hopefully a different flag (and not the Muscovite one like in eu4). But hey, on the bright side, at least the devs confirmed you can form the Kingdom of Ruthenia.

I understand the contemporary reasons this would upset you but the reason that the gameplay of a history game privileges the narrative of the modern regional hegemon is because that state is the successor of the historic regional hegemon. It would be like an Irish person being upset that the main formable in the British isles is called Great Britain because that's the name of the other island

The reason nobody argues with you is because the issue isn't that your position is disagreeable it's that the argument is pointless. Very few people on this forum think Russia should be in the game so that nationalists can live out their fantasies of storming Kyiv but even fewer people think Russia as a tag shouldn't be in the game to prevent that possibility

Both og you seem to have missed the point. Danskjävel isn't arguing against having Russia as a formable tag, they're arguing against having all the Eastern Slavic lands start with a single unified Russian culture that only diverges into Ukrainian, Ruthenian etc due to being split into different countries, and then automatically reunites into Russian as soon as Russia forms without any assimilationist policies necessary.

 

[Baphomet enjoyer]

The icons for centralization and decentralization seem to be swapped

 

[Bisonmask]

Both og you seem to have missed the point. Danskjävel isn't arguing against having Russia as a formable tag, they're arguing against having all the Eastern Slavic lands start with a single unified Russian culture that only diverges into Ukrainian, Ruthenian etc due to being split into different countries, and then automatically reunites into Russian as soon as Russia forms without any assimilationist policies necessary.

To my understanding the peoples of the states under the Mongol Yoke viewed themselves as a singular one in the same sense as Germans or Spaniards did despite having internal divisions. Further, when a Russian state did form in the region what cultural conflict did define the state was not primarily between the various Russian groups but instead the Mongols, Turks, Poles, Balts, Finns and others in the region. The historic process was moreso one of various groups of people identifying as Rus diverging into the groups we have today in terms of their impact on political events

I can see an argument that whichever locus is the one to become a hegemonic state could be the one to call itself "Rus" and the others would then be viewed as divergent but in that case what would you call those people? What culture should Muscovy get when it diverges from old Rus if Kyiv is the center of the East Slavic world?

And in either case he's placing a ton of moral weight that isn't there on this setup. Divergence isn't being "led astray" it is divergence. Forging a different path doesn't make a Ukranian or Belorussian or Siberian culture somehow lesser than a Russian one in the minds of anyone who isn't a Russian or Ukrainian nationalist

 

[Korsjan Rīkis]

I think the reason Russia is the only formable in the region is because, like the devs said, they're focusing on historically accurate content at least until release. That's why you don't have formables like "Severia" or "Champagne". It doesn't have anything to do with essentialism (to be honest, I had no idea what that was either), just simplification to have kingdom/empire sized powerblocks appearing as the game progresses. If Novgorod becomes the dominant power in Eastern Europe it will still form Russia, sure, but it will be a alternative version of it (like being a republic or having Novgorodian culture for example) with hopefully a different flag (and not the Muscovite one like in eu4). But hey, on the bright side, at least the devs confirmed you can form the Kingdom of Ruthenia.

Novgorod should stay as Novgorod or became Great Novgorod/Veche or something, if it becomes the dominant power. As for the player, it should of course still be possible to form Russia.

I really hate it how in EUIV you were forced to form Russia as Novgorod or stay as forever duchy with old missions and flavour.

 

[Metz]

What happens to foreign clergy if they get annexed? Will they join other estates?

Will there always be just one religious estate? How will large amounts of Protestants and Catholics be represented within a country during the Reformation and what if they opt for religious pluralism?

 

[Metz]

Yes, this is the 'Manage Subjects' panel:
View attachment 1246826

Could there be filters added to sort by region? Maybe you could even add their populations as there is space if the other columns are moved to the right.

 

[Tasmosunt]

What culture should Muscovy get when it diverges from old Rus if Kyiv is the center of the East Slavic world?

The the region has sometimes been called Black Rus'/Ruthenia/Russia during the games time period. That would be the easiest alternative history name to apply.