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Tinto Flavour #3 - 24th of January 2025 - Novgorod

Hello, and welcome to the third installment of Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays in which we look at the flavour content of the super secret Project Caesar! This week we will be traveling to the cold north, where the Sovereign Lord Republic of Velikiy Novgorod lies beside Lake Ilmen:

"Originally founded by Slav and Norse people as Holmgård, the 'new city' of Novgorod became the main political and economic center in the north of the lands inhabited by the Russian people. Fiercely independent, the Novgorodian council elects its Prince among neighboring rulers, although the true power is held by its people, who thrive thanks to the commercial routes linking the rich inland resource-gathering outposts with the Baltic and White Seas.

However, in recent decades, the war with Sweden has been almost a constant, nowadays halted after the creation of the buffer state of Oreshek. Meanwhile, to the south, Muscovy has become a dominant power, with the backing of the Golden Horde. The proud inhabitants of Novgorod may have to face difficult decisions at these crossroads."

Country Selection.jpg

Grand Prince Ivan Rurikovich I ‘Kalita’ of Muscovy is the Prince elected by the Council of Novgorod. As usual, please consider the UI, 2D and 3D art as WIP.

And here are the lands of Veliky Novgorod:
Novgorod.jpg

Today with a different camera angle!

This is the starting situation of Novgorod:
Diplomacy.jpg

Subjects.jpg

Pskov and Oreshek, the two first shown in the subject list, are vassals. The other subjects are pop-based tributaries; we need some work to make them visible on this screen. Besides that, Muscovy and the other countries with a similar color share a PU with Novgorod throughout their ruler, Ivan I.

Let’s now take a look at Novgorod itself. The first thing is the country's government type, which is a Republic. As per that, and Novgorod’s main culture belonging to the Russian culture group, two different things get unlocked. The first is a major government reform, the Veche Republic:
Veche Republic.jpg

The second is this Age of Traditions advance:
Veche Advance.jpg

This in turn unlocks the Veche Selection, a succession law that allows your country to select the ruler among neighboring countries:
Veche Selection.jpg

You might have noticed that Estates are important and powerful in the governance of Novgorod. This is also reflected in the unique privileges it starts with, with 3 unique privileges for Nobility:
Kormlenije.jpg

Ryad.jpg

Tysiatskii.jpg

And one for Burghers:
Ivan's Hundred.jpg

There are also some unique policies. The first is for the Legal Code law:
Russkaya Pravda.jpg

And the second is for the Administrative System Law:
Pyatina Policy.jpg

Novgorod also has some unique works of art, such as:
House of Holy Wisdom.jpg

This will reappear later in this Tinto Flavour, keep an eye on it!

And a type of work of art that is unique to Orthodox and Miaphysite countries, the Icon:
Saint George in Yuriev.jpg

Speaking of Orthodoxy, there’s some Orthodox-related stuff that I’m just going to tease, as we will talk in detail about this in a future Tinto Talks, like this Law available to all Orthodox countries:
Role of the Patriarchate.jpg

Patriarchates, a concept that you will either love or hate as an Orthodox country!

Now let’s move into taking a look at some of the unique advances that are available to Novgorod:
Birch Bark.jpg

Novgorod First Chronicle.jpg

Funding Ushkuyniks.jpg

Northern Center of Arts.jpg

Posadnichestvo.jpg

The last one unlocks another unique government reform, after it has been researched during the Age of Renaissance:
Posadnichestvo Office.jpg

Finally, let’s take a look at some of the events that Novgorod may get. The first appears early in the campaign, after an event that triggers to Sweden:
Theological Debate.jpg

Shall we debate with Swedish about theology, or just forward them for a Byzantine debate?

Another one that may trigger early on is this one:
Karelian Rebellion.jpg

These Swedes are troublemakers!

This is an event you will get to expand the Cathedral of St. Sophia, with an option to start constructing a building on top of the WoA:
Cathedral St. Sophia.jpg

This is another event that you can get after 1400:
Sovet Gospod.jpg

That will unlock a new government reform, that will replace the Veche Republic as your main government reform:
Sovet Gospod2.jpg

…And much more content will be available for Novgorod, but that’s all for today! I hope you enjoyed today’s Tinto Flavour, next week we will be taking a look at Mali, the land of Mansa Musa! Cheers!
 

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Might be where Russia unique content takes over. Republic flavored.
Also a late veche could be pretty funny when your neighbours are HRE, Venice, Afghans, Ming and Ottomans. Also some american tribes. Now which one of those is to provide a ruler?

Then again those Human Resource Experts are the likeliest.
See that's the thing, they said there would be no alt history stuff. The issue comes in with stuff like this, how can you not have some alt history when you have Novgorod-formed Russia. I guess there can be russia flavor sans Tsarist stuff or something, idk.
 
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Hm, I think I see where you went wrong.
Ruthenia = latinized name for Rus.
Russia = graecized name for Rus.
Ruthenia = Russia = Rus
2 exonyms, 1 endonym. The rule of thumb is to use English exonyms instead of local endonyms for high-level concepts. Germany, not Deutschland. Sweden, not Sverige. Manchuria, not whatever-locals-ask-for. And conequently, the corresponding adjective in flavour text is Russian.
You didn't understand a thing from my comment. Ruthenia/Rus/Russia aren't the same thing throughout history that's why these names mean different things. It's not like Sweden/Sverige type of naming. It's not about exonyms/endonyms it's about to differ countries and nations. If you don't then you fall for Russian propaganda- because it's right then to invade another country if you see them as yourself, LiBeRaTe them.

You totally blew off of the argument
 
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You didn't understand a thing from my comment. Ruthenia/Rus/Russia aren't the same thing throughout history that's why these names mean different things. It's not like Sweden/Sverige type of naming. It's not about exonyms/endonyms it's about to differ countries and nations. If you don't then you fall for Russian propaganda- because it's right then to invade another country if you see them as yourself, LiBeRaTe them.

You totally blew off of the argument
Just a general note, to my mind from what I see, the devs have actually handled it well:
  • Rus refers to the pre-Mongolian times when it was, actually, one big Rus. This is more actual for Crusader Kings tome frame.
  • Ruthenian refers to the territories of Ukraine and Belarus in the EU5 time frame. Actually during the early modern period, the term Ruthenia started to be mostly associated with the Slavic lands of the Polish and Lithuanian Crowns and the Cossack Hetmanate. That are Ukraine and Belarus, actually. This term is normally accepted In Ukraine. Also we already know that there will be some kind of unique content for Halych/Volhynia and they can reestablish the Ruthenian Kingdom.
  • Russian refers to the territory that later became modern-day Russia.
So far it looks consistent, unambiguous and reflects three different meanings and I am OK with it.
 
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You totally blew off of the argument
Um, maybe.
You objected to the use of the word "Russian". I have spotted 2 instances in the post:
1) "Old Russian Law" in Russkaya Pravda. - here, the English word "Russian" means 'pertaining to Rus', which was mentioned earlier in the sentence. AND it's an argument for replacing all Kievan Rus with Old Rus, btw.
2) the notion of "Russian nobility" in Kormleniye system. - Did Kormleniye exist in PLC? AFAIK no, they didn't use this tax farming system. Therefore, we have no reason to say "Ruthenian nobility" here. The practice existed on the Russian side of the divide and therefore it's fitting to use "Russian nobility".
 
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What would be the in game benefits of moving your capital to St. Petersburg if keeping it as Moscow ensures a stronger radius of control? Maybe it would give a technology gain bonus? Organically, with the current existing game mechanics, there isn’t a reason or so it seems so it would need a modifier or an event of sorts that makes the capital change worthwhile.
 
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Is ‘fiercely independent’ a definition for an oligarchic republic that elected a dictator who eventually sold it to the Mongols? It was never as big a city as you make it out to be in your games. It was no more than a northern stronghold, a trading post of Kyivans (the city was founded by immigrants from it somewhere in the 10th century, and the city began to carry any importance only in the middle of the 11th, and the history of the independent republic begins only in the first half of the 12th). Its population, described as ‘Russians’, never considered themselves as such, they were Novgorodians - citizens and creopsts of the same city, which was standard in that era. Outside the core of Novgorod lived mainly colonised Finno-Ugric tribes and, eventually, Tatar peoples, while Slavs were only mainly urban residents. Why the **** some Muscovite is being given the coat of arms of the Kyivan princes is the question of the century, especially given the current interaction between Muscovy and Kyiv, it is st*pid, politically motivated, unprofessional, insolent and offensive.
The correct word is not Russian but Rus'. Russia is a calque for the real name of Rus'.
So we have:
-Misunderstanding of place names
-Misunderstanding of the history of politics in the region
-Misunderstanding of the nationalities of the place
-Insults to the real culture
-A person who develops a literal is not in the context of the region. Maximum.
 
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Why the **** some Muscovite is being given the coat of arms of the Kyivan princes is the question of the century,
I'll answer it for you - it's because he's their direct descendant. You know, a Rurikovich, named after Rurik, who wasn't exactly a "Kyivan prince", but a varyngian who's kinsman has conquered Kyiv after becoming the ruler of, you'll never guess it, Novgorod.
 
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So just to be clear, on release, it doesn't look like countries won't have missions or mission trees like EU4?

Instead flavour will come from events, laws, characters and advances?

Are you planning to add in mission trees or a similar structure further down the line?

The devs have explained, though I don't remember where, that while missions exist, they are trying to avoid what they became in EU4. I got the sense that missions were going to be somewhat similar to Imperator, not based on tags, instead on your culture, etc. EU4 suffered from mission trees being arcady and railroady, so it's understandable they are trying to avoid them.
 
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View attachment 1247282 actual swal of Kalita. ITS must be in game. The actual one in screen of game is one of adoptathion of Sviatoslav or Svyatoslav I Igorevich, Prince of Kjiv.
Rurick. Not Kjivans.
Svyatoslav was the Grand Prince of Kyiv AND Novgorod, not just Kjiv. As for Rurik, I don't think we know if he had his own coat of arms. The closest thing I can give you is the coat of arms of Old Ladoga, the original capital of Old Rus' which is what Svyatoslav's coat of arms is based of.
 

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Colonizing the northern provinces is one of the most interesting things to do with Novgorod, yes.
Went checking the steppe and machuria, siberia and arctic elephant hordes maps. The #1 map is sadly cropped. Certainly LOOKS like the NE passage is a path to finding america a few decades before the spanish. Also a quick (lol) path to meritocracy and beating sweden 7-1 (icehockey terminology) in the lil game of lets see who can colonize finland and sapme in general faster.

Then as a matter of completition, do the NW passage too. Thus beating magellan? Now the exidtance of that one is self evident in the north america map.
 
View attachment 1247282 actual swal of Kalita. ITS must be in game. The actual one in screen of game is one of adoptathion of Sviatoslav or Svyatoslav I Igorevich, Prince of Kjiv.
Trident is displayed in the game not as coat of arms of Ivan Kalita himself but as coat of arms of whole Rurikid dynasty which is not limited to Novgorod or Muscovy for that matter. As Rus' princes had only personal coats of arms and didn't have one to represent the whole dynasty, variation of trident (which was common type among their coats of arms) is used instead as symbol of whole Rurikovich house. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbols_of_the_Rurikids
 
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I was going to facetiously demand an Arborea flavor pack, but that does make me wonder, what sorts of flavor will countries that very few care about get? I understand that man hours need to be budgeted effectively so even this might be a big ask, but it would be cool to see something for the little guys, even if it's in the form of "mini-flavor packs" or something with just one or two things. For instance, Arborea could have just a few things like the Carta de Logu being a legal work of art, a representation of the judgedom system and its semi-elective nature, an estate privilege representing the curatorias, or Eleanor of Arborea being a historical figure who is predisposed to oppose Aragon. The last example would be good if you did another women in history themed event pack :D Plus representing the conflict between Aragon and Arborea would pertain to Aragon, which I assume most likely is getting a flavor pack.
 
I was going to facetiously demand an Arborea flavor pack, but that does make me wonder, what sorts of flavor will countries that very few care about get? I understand that man hours need to be budgeted effectively so even this might be a big ask, but it would be cool to see something for the little guys, even if it's in the form of "mini-flavor packs" or something with just one or two things. For instance, Arborea could have just a few things like the Carta de Logu being a legal work of art, a representation of the judgedom system and its semi-elective nature, an estate privilege representing the curatorias, or Eleanor of Arborea being a historical figure who is predisposed to oppose Aragon. The last example would be good if you did another women in history themed event pack :D Plus representing the conflict between Aragon and Arborea would pertain to Aragon, which I assume most likely is getting a flavor pack.

They've posted the framework for the content countries can have, so if there are any small countries you expect won't have much or any content, you can make it easy for the devs and research said countries, fill the framework and make a post
 
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