Tinto Flavour #31 - 11th of July 2025 - Aztecs

[vinaxel33]

@Pavía
Will we have more architectural works?

For example, the Nezahualcoyotl Dam

Also the Tetzcutzinco site (although it's in Texcoco, not Tenochtitlan), better known as the baths and gardens of Nezahualcoyotl.
It's a masterpiece of engineering. You can visit them today.

As well as works of art:

Sun Stone (Aztec Calendar)

Tlaltecutli Sculpture: This piece is now in the Museum of the Great Temple of Tenochtitlan and measures 4.1 m x 3.6 m.

Tizoc Stone: It probably served as a Temalacatl, that is, for gladiatorial sacrifices. Measurements:
93 cm thick
2.65 m in diameter
8.3 m in circumference.

 

[Braziler]

I don't know what the difficulty would be, but perhaps all the lakes should be represented as a 'paper map layer' that doesn't disappear when zoomed in. This would allow them to be represented at any angle without the relief distortions involved. Although it might not be possible to include reflections, it's generally, I believe, a better solution.

 

[Togelic]

Can the Triple Alliance lead into the Aztecs becoming a republic of city-states instead of a monarchy?

 

[SAmaster]

Also, I know this is all very WIP and it's likely to get fixed anyway, but I have to point out that the main thing that irks me about how lake Texcoco looks is that its water level is too low, and should be more like this:
View attachment 1332609

Since the area around lake Texcoco was relatively flat:
View attachment 1332611

I suspect that the game engine automatically puts all water bodies on the same level, thus creating these weird coastlines in high-elevation lakes, which was also a problem in EU4 which took a while to get solved. I hope this can be fixed. I just hope we won't get reverse mount doom in Tibet again:
View attachment 1332635


And as for the Tenochtitlan not being on an island argument, what I'd see as a good solution is to just disable its building models completely, except for maybe a single mode (fort?) on the island, and putting the capital marker on the island. One day we'll get some DLC with random models in it, like in every PDX game, and a Tenochtitlan model will be one of them. This would genuinely be better than the current situation.

Maybe the island could be slightly enlarged to represent the smaller surrounding islands that I'm sure were part of Tenochitlan's infrastructure? Of course, maybe there's not enough 'real estate' to work with with the size of the lake to begin with.

 

[theolaa]

Like this?:

View attachment 1332525​

I love a good localisation tweak

 

[Pavía]

Also, I know this is all very WIP and it's likely to get fixed anyway, but I have to point out that the main thing that irks me about how lake Texcoco looks is that its water level is too low, and should be more like this:
View attachment 1332609

Since the area around lake Texcoco was relatively flat:
View attachment 1332611

I suspect that the game engine automatically puts all water bodies on the same level, thus creating these weird coastlines in high-elevation lakes, which was also a problem in EU4 which took a while to get solved. I hope this can be fixed. I just hope we won't get reverse mount doom in Tibet again:
View attachment 1332635


And as for the Tenochtitlan not being on an island argument, what I'd see as a good solution is to just disable its building models completely, except for maybe a single mode (fort?) on the island, and putting the capital marker on the island. One day we'll get some DLC with random models in it, like in every PDX game, and a Tenochtitlan model will be one of them. This would genuinely be better than the current situation.

Yes, exactly, our 3D Environment Artist has been working this week precisely on improvements for the high-elevation lakes (a usual problem when you work with heightmaps), and we also need to tweak a bit the Lake Texcoco shores.

 

[vinaxel33]

Hello, and welcome one more Friday to Tinto Flavour, the happy days in which we take a look at the flavour content of Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will take a look at the flavour content for the Aztecs! Let’s start without further ado:

View attachment 1332481
As usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D Art as WIP.​

If they were a warrior society and were highly militarized, isn't Tenoch Mixcoatl's military statistics (33) very low? Perhaps 50 or 60 military?

The Nahua countries start with a unique government reform, the Altepetl, that nudges towards expanding through subjects, and also slave-raiding (which is also linked to the Nahua Ritualism mechanic of sacrificing slaves, as we saw last Wednesday):

View attachment 1332486​

"Disallows Taking Land in Peace Treaties"

Why are the Altepetl unable to take land in peace treaties?

View attachment 1332488​

There it says: "maximum tax for burgher state"

We don't have burghers.

In the description it says:
"The preparation of tributes, sacrifices, and festivals is a great honor for our merchants. In exchange for this responsibility, they shall be exempt from regular taxation."

Why would merchants organize the festivals and sacrifices? That falls under the jurisdiction of the priestly class. Please fix it.

If you want to add something about the pochtecas/merchants, you can say that they are exempt from tax because they bring luxury goods from distant places and also act as spies for the Tlatoani.

And a unique policy for the Administrative System:

View attachment 1332612​

In the case of the Calpixque System, I don't understand how "Subject Income +10%" benefits Tenochtitlan.

Here you have some of the unique Advances of the Aztecs:

View attachment 1332498​

In the case of chinampas, it's a breakthrough for everyone in the Valley of Mexico. Furthermore, chinampas weren't invented by the Mexica/Aztecs; rather, this agricultural innovation already existed when they arrived at Lake Texcoco.

That is, it shouldn't have been available until the Age of Renaissance; it should have been available since the Age of Traditions.

Of course, they could add a space modifier for construction or something similar, since Tenochtitlan gained land from the lake in this way to build more buildings.

And well, a final boss to deal with:

View attachment 1332506​

Please note that Cocoliztli was brought by the Spanish. In the description, it seems like it appeared out of nowhere.

I'm referring to this paragraph:
"A new strange fever has begun to spread in our lands. It is far worse than any disease we have ever seen either before or after the arrival of the Europeans."
Please fix this.




Likewise, and in a general way, many events and policies could be mentioned, for example:

The Calpulli: Which was the smallest administrative and territorial unit at that time, making government administration less complicated and allowing for greater order in terms of taxes, land, levies, etc.

 

[vinaxel33]

1. Is it encouraged to make some countries tributaries/vassals instead of annexing them outright? In the early 1500s the Triple Alliance had more than 20 so-called “strategic provinces” alongside their more core network of tributary provinces.

Don't delete it, your comment is correct. A few years before the arrival of the Spanish, the Mexica were centralizing their government and creating many tributary provinces, as well as having strategic provinces with a purely Nahua/Mexica population in those areas.

1. Will I be able to send my pochteca merchants out as spies or as a stepping stone to conquest/subjugation? Sometimes (for instance in Soconusco and Coixtlahuaca) the locals harassed/expelled the pochteca, which drew the empire into a conflict sooner than might have otherwise happened. Tenochtitlan also supposedly sent pochteca as far as Honduras, Nicaragua and Costa Rica.

That's correct, the Mexica used the pochtecas, in addition to being traders, as expert spies.

Many of the conquests of Mexico-Tenochtitlan were made when the pochtecas were caught spying and killed, and that was reason enough for the Mexica to declare war on them.

Being a pochteca went beyond being a trader; they also served as explorers, "map makers" of luxury goods, primarily, and obviously, as we already mentioned, spies.

 

[Sebroar]

If they were a warrior society and were highly militarized, isn't Tenoch Mixcoatl's military statistics (33) very low? Perhaps 50 or 60 military?


"Disallows Taking Land in Peace Treaties"

Why are the Altepetl unable to take land in peace treaties?



There it says: "maximum tax for burgher state"

We don't have burghers.

In the description it says:
"The preparation of tributes, sacrifices, and festivals is a great honor for our merchants. In exchange for this responsibility, they shall be exempt from regular taxation."

Why would merchants organize the festivals and sacrifices? That falls under the jurisdiction of the priestly class. Please fix it.

If you want to add something about the pochtecas/merchants, you can say that they are exempt from tax because they bring luxury goods from distant places and also act as spies for the Tlatoani.


In the case of the Calpixque System, I don't understand how "Subject Income +10%" benefits Tenochtitlan.



In the case of chinampas, it's a breakthrough for everyone in the Valley of Mexico. Furthermore, chinampas weren't invented by the Mexica/Aztecs; rather, this agricultural innovation already existed when they arrived at Lake Texcoco.

That is, it shouldn't have been available until the Age of Renaissance; it should have been available since the Age of Traditions.

Of course, they could add a space modifier for construction or something similar, since Tenochtitlan gained land from the lake in this way to build more buildings.

Please note that Cocoliztli was brought by the Spanish. In the description, it seems like it appeared out of nowhere.

I'm referring to this paragraph:
"A new strange fever has begun to spread in our lands. It is far worse than any disease we have ever seen either before or after the arrival of the Europeans."
Please fix this.




Likewise, and in a general way, many events and policies could be mentioned, for example:

The Calpulli: Which was the smallest administrative and territorial unit at that time, making government administration less complicated and allowing for greater order in terms of taxes, land, levies, etc.

There are burghers, they are just called with the Nāhuatl name, pōchtēcah.

I don't know what "subject income" refers to, but I think it's the fraction of the subject's income that goes to you, which would benefit the Aztecs.

As for the cocoliztli, the cause is still unknown, and there are proponents for both an Old World origin and a New World one. Note that there are accounts of similar diseases in the area even in pre-Columbian times.

Regarding the calpulli, they could spell it either that way or calpōlli, depending on whether they want to go for the Spanish version (the former) or for the original Nāhuatl one (the latter). Classical Nāhuatl didn't have /u/. It should be noted that in English I've seen calpulli more often than calpōlli.

Edits: fixed phone shenanigans.

 

[nyetflix2]

Don't delete it, your comment is correct. A few years before the arrival of the Spanish, the Mexica were centralizing their government and creating many tributary provinces, as well as having strategic provinces with a purely Nahua/Mexica population in those areas.

Definitely. I only crossed out that point because I realized the Altepetl reform disallows you from taking land directly. So it's already covered, although maybe they went a bit overboard.

 

[jfrimpong945]

• I like the change of removing the items from the picture/portrait area.
  • I would have done it differently so that you didn't have half a picture of just the background (still looks like someone taking a vacation picture of a location but his mom told him to go stand in the picture.)
  • I would have the model on the 'throne' side of the picture and crop the background to be half as wide. Stacking the data (at the top and still in the picture) down the now empty left side.
• County of Tenochtitlan sounds bad. I would just go with Tenochtitlan (same with calling him a count)
• Do we need the titles of "Primary Culture" and "Primary Religion" as it is hiding the real information of 'Nahua' and 'Nahua Ritualism'? If we feel the titles are needed can we reduce their font size and increase the font of the real information?

It should be the altepetl of tenochtitlan,

 

[vinaxel33]

Hello, and welcome one more Friday to Tinto Flavour, the happy days in which we take a look at the flavour content of Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will take a look at the flavour content for the Aztecs! Let’s start without further ado:

View attachment 1332481
​

In this case, it's not a county; it should be Altepetl, which is why it's a single reform. Or, if you want to be more specific, the correct name should be Tlatocayotl, perhaps.

Just as it's not a Count, it should be Tlatoani.

For this reason, and extrapolating to the Triple Alliance (Tenochtitlan, Texcoco, and Tlacopan), its name is Excan Tlatoloyan or Yexcan Tlatoloyan. And the Altepetl (city-state) led by Excan Tlatoloyan was called Huey Tlatocayotl.

Please fix it.

 

[vinaxel33]

The Eagle warriors were elite units and they excelled at capturing enemies alive during battles to sacrifice them later by bringing them to temples

Therefore the portion of casualty inflicted by Eagle warriors should be POW, if they won the battle

This would help Aztecs gather more slaves to sacrifice by turning POWs to slaves

I think you're confusing a war of conquest/subjugation with a flowery war.

Both involve eagle warriors and jaguar warriors (and other military orders like the Cuahiqueh or the Cuextecah), but their functions depend on the type of war: the flowery war was a war agreed upon to obtain captives, and the war of conquest, well, we already know that.

 

[vinaxel33]

If the Eagle Warriors and the Jaguar Warriors are going to have the same stats why are they two independent things?

Also it is the religion or the building that allows for the 'recruitment' of them? (If you somehow had a different building that allowed for recruitment of units and were Nahua Ritualistic could you recruit them? Is there any other unit that is limited to a specific "Barracks" building?

They are not the same, look at the statistics carefully.

 

[vinaxel33]

View attachment 1332519
Why did you put the flag of country above the event window? I feel like it's pretry useless

You're right. The epidemics brought by the Europeans didn't just affect Tenochtitlan; they affected all of Mesoamerica, the entire American continent. It shouldn't be framed by the flag of Tenochtitlan; rather, it should be an event for all of Mesoamerica, not exclusive to Tenochtitlan.

 

[nyetflix2]

Anything related to Teotihuacan?

At the very least it should be a unique building that grants strong modifiers to things like prestige and legitimacy.

Dating to around 500ad, Teotihuacan was the seat the last great empire of central Mexico and in the centuries since the empire's fall and the city was abandoned its legacy was heavily contested. The Aztecs as part of their founding mythology, for example, claimed to be the direct descendants of this empire to legitimize their own conquests.

It'd be nice to have a small event whenever someone conquers the location to claim the legacy of Teotihuacan, get some buffs, and some aggression with neighbors.

The Aztecs claimed a mixed heritage of Tolteca-Chichimeca. I think you're confusing the Toltecs with Teotihuacan. Tollan is a vague term and could refer to Teotihuacan sometimes, but in this case I'm pretty certain by Toltec they mean a culture linked to Tula de Allende from the 900s and 1000s, after Teotihuacan had already collapsed.

 

[vinaxel33]

They're just too tiny, unfortunately. We'd have to wait for EU6, with a map 10 times more detailed, to be able to do it, I'm sorry to say.

I've already made some comments on the Tinto Map of Central America about how the case of Tenochtitlan could be resolved so that it is actually an island. I even have shapefiles and KMZ/KML files in case you need them to implement it.

In addition, I provided reasons for the modifications I made, how they were made, and where they were going.

Please, if Tenochtitlan can be made into an island. If you'd like, I'll post the information here again, and I'm working on something more detailed.

 

[vinaxel33]

It's a new UI feature that marks that this event is a specific DHE for that country. So there will be 3 types of icons in the top bars of events - Situations, Disasters, and DHEs.

Again, the epidemics (Cocoliztli) were not exclusive to Tenochtitlan, they were for all of Mesoamerica and the event should portray it that way.

 

[Gurtannon]

I think you're confusing a war of conquest/subjugation with a flowery war.

Both involve eagle warriors and jaguar warriors (and other military orders like the Cuahiqueh or the Cuextecah), but their functions depend on the type of war: the flowery war was a war agreed upon to obtain captives, and the war of conquest, well, we already know that.

No, I talk about the purpose of that special unit, eagle warriors were skilled at capturing enemies during the battle ( They even captured Cortez briefly during the siege of Tenochtitlan)


Eagle warriors could capture enemies in any battle, doesnt matter flower wars or putting down a rebel army I guess

 

[vinaxel33]

So this basically means that most of the Nahua flavour is exclusive to the Altepetl of Tenōchtitlan? Can no other Nahua city do what Tenōchtitlan did and form the "Aztec Empire"?

How do you plan to do the Aztec Empire/Triple Alliance? Would the IO be the "alliance" itself (however, that would only be between two cities, as the third constituent doesn't have a location on map), or the Triple Alliance would be a proper country/tag, and the IO would be about its complex system of vassals and tributaries?

Does the position of the Cihuācōātl actually appear in the game as the position of the Head of Cabinet, like the Mahapatih does for Majapahit?

I believe that given the early start date of the game (1337), any of the lake altepetls could form the Triple Alliance; it shouldn't be exclusive to Tenochtitlan, Texcoco, and Tlacopan.

As an additional note: The Triple Alliance (Tenochtitlan, Texcoco, and Tlacopan) weren't the only "triple alliances." For example, at the start of the game, we must have Azcapotzalco-Texcoco-Culhuacan, and I believe Chalco and its neighbors also had theirs.

Basically, any group of altepetl from the lake could form it.