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Tinto Flavour #4 - 31st of January 2025 - Mali

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays in which we take a look at the flavourful content created for the super secret Project Caesar! But before we start, I want to share with you that we have a new job opening in Paradox Tinto: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/come-work-for-tinto.1727521/

Today we will be traveling throughout the Sahara toward the Sahel, where the Empire of Mali stands, ruled by the infamous Mansa Mūsā:

"The mighty Mansa Mūsā Keita of Mali astonished the world one decade ago, when he performed his Ḥajj ('pilgrimage') to Mecca. Such an event was recorded by chroniclers and chanted by minstrels, and it served to establish his fame as the richest man as he spread his prodigality, gifting Zakāh ('almsgiving') gold wherever his long and luxurious courtly caravan passed by.

This display of splendor might have reflected the richnesses of the Malian lands, after its Empire expanded and consolidated under the Keita dynasty. However, one day Mansa Mūsā will pass away, and his successors may not find it so easy to rule over his very diverse holdings..."

Country Selection.png

The mighty Mansa Mūsā is still ruling Mali in 1337 (we don’t know exactly when he died, so we decided to have him as the ruler at the start of the game). As usual, please consider the UI, 2D and 3D art as WIP.

And here are the lands of Mali:
Mali.png

Some more fun camera rotations this week! Today, with the flat map mode on again.

Mali starts with one Vassal, which is Jolof:
Jolof 1.png

Jolof 2.png

Let’s take a look at some Government-related features of Mali, which can be checked in the Estates window:
Estates.png

There is one starting government reform for Mali, the Manden Kurufa:
Manden Kurufa.png

You might also notice that all Estates start with a privilege with the same icon, as it’s a similar one, made to portray the religious diversity of Mali, a country ruled largely by Mande-speaking Sunni people, but with a fragmented, but tolerant, society:
Protected Faith.png

Religions.png

The second screenshot comes from a tooltip on the Religious panel and shows the religious distribution of the country. Please note that we’ve already done the ‘Pagan’ split, but haven’t yet incorporated feedback from the West African Tinto Maps, nor reviewed the starting population.

There are also a couple of unique privileges for the 'Umarā', the Nobility of the country, that may be available later on after an event triggers:
Office of the Farima-Soura.png

Office of the Sankar-Zouma.png

Mali also starts with a couple of unique policies enacted, the first for the Distribution of Power estate law, and the other for the Levy Law military law:
Gbra.png

Ton-tan-jon-ta-ni-woro.png

Mali also starts with 3 Works of Art:
Works of Art.png

Let’s now take a look at some unique advances:
Koroukan Faga.png

This advance is the one that unlocks the Manden Kurufa government reform.

Gold of Bure.png

Mali is famous for its gold exports, yeah…

Mali has a bunch of unique units, also:
Mandekalu Levies.png

Here are the Levy units unlocked by it:
Mandekalu Infantry.png

Mandekalu Horsemen.png

You might note that the description of these two levy units refers to the Farari Corps, which is the following advance:
Farari Corps.png

That unlocks the following Regular units:
Farari Infantry.png

Farari Cavalry.png

Another unique advance:
Kele-Koun.png

That unlocks the Jonow Auxiliary, an Auxiliary unit:
Jonow Auxiliary.png

Finally, another military advance, that unlocks one more unit, and two more buildings:
Sofa Levies.png

Sofa Infantrymen.png

Sofa Barracks.png

Sofa Stockade.png

Let’s now take a look at the narrative content. This event will trigger while Mansa Mūsā is still alive, as an announcement of the potentially harsh time to come:
Zenith of the Mali Empire.png

This is the disaster that may end up triggering for your country, ‘Decline of Mali’:
Decline of Mali 1.png

It will trigger a number of nasty events, such as:
A fragmented realm.png

This event allows you to start playing with Songhai instead of Mali if you select the third option.

If you overcome the disaster, you’ll get a reward, in terms of Prestige, Stability, etc. (we need to do some balance tweaks on it, so there might be more!).

Nonetheless, besides the disaster, you can also get nicer events while playing as Mali, such as some about the development of Timbuktu:
Bolstering Timbuktu.png

And that’s all for today! I hope you enjoyed it! Next week we will travel back to Europe, to the lands of the Crown of Aragon! Cheers!
 
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This looks incredible, very happy to see it. I do wonder if the Sunni population is a bit high? Surprisingly significant portions of the more rural Sahel and Sudan to this day are extremely syncretic with african traditional religions to say the least, and it was my understanding that majorities weren't even formally considering themselves muslim until around the 17th and 18th centuries. I'm sure there isn't great data about those demographics from the time, but extrapolating from accounts in later centuries I'd imagine 40%-50% would be a safe approximation, centering on urban centers and the pastoral nomadic regions with more trans-saharan influence.

Very excited to see Mali so fleshed out either way! Trying to hold together declining empires was one of my favorite ways to play EU4, and I think the pops and economy in PC will make it even more dramatic and satisfying.
 
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"Our economy, though, is used to a constant influx of gold and is more difficult to inflate."
What is the source for this claim?
I don't think it makes any sense. If you increase the money supply without a corresponding increase in available goods and services, you're going to have inflation.
Did Mali have a magic economic system that has since been lost to time?
Meanwhile no truly actual goldbased economic system has ever seen inflation.
When in fascinating fact, the price of several goods most notably bread has remained entirely stable measured in gold for 5000 years. Both were and still are well understood, old school products. No new innovations worth mentioning. The raw materials are much the same.

Did a similar discovery comparing 1920s (CoC) and present pricing. Manufactured goods from gasoline to automobiles and so on have deflated enormously (in gold) as methods of manufactury has improved but other things like food are entirely stable.
 
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Each rulers outfit is tiered roughly by country rank. Mansa Musa is wearing emperor rank in both of those screenshots and I don't think there's many other emperors in Africa. We are also trialling middle eastern clothes on all Muslims, it feels like it makes a lot of sense when we see it play out in India and Africa but open to feedback.
Solomonids? Ofc those would be christian.
Title must have been earned in the time of Saba and the empire stretched across bab-el-mandeb.

Rock hews churches are there already with a truly astonishing drainage system, kilometers of hand cut drainage tunnel cut by hand and 10cm times 10cm in size. Since ancient aliens are impossible and silly it must have been really slim kids doing the work. Even if they did accredit angels with much of the work, but that's just modesty and trying to escape human rights violations for tiny child labor whose skulls must have been made cucumber shaped since birth :D
And yes all the other bones can be contorted but not skulls.
 
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The visual representation of Mali here seems quite uninspired and generic. A few things I would change:
- The courtroom art in the first picture is based off of Ashanti-Akan architecture that we have recorded from the 17th-18th centuries onward, not what buildings in the Sahel looked like.
- We have no indication that the monarch of Mali would be wearing a turban. Ibn Battuta, who personally saw Mansa Sulaiman in the 1350s, records that the Mansas wore a golden skull-cap srapped across the chin with horns portruding out of the strap. The rest of his clothes were likened to a "European tunic", not the kaftan he's wearing in the game. Way more interesting and foreign than just another bedouin with a turban.
- Ibn Battuta also tells about the common presence and ritual importance of bows and archery in the Malian aristocracy, which (IMO) suggests a nomadic past that still permeates many understandings. We can see also, from what we have left over from them materially, that they were not just an "islamic society" as they seem to be depicted usually, but one that's really brimming with native pagan/African influences with Islam imposed on top of the power structure
 
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There were multiple reasons affecting the governance of the Empire, making it increasingly more difficult to be ruled, and also weaker from external threats. You have a short summary in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire#Decline

There's something we're working on for the game, called 'Historical Info', that will appear in future Tinto Flavour, and that we'll keep adding for cases such as the 'Decline of Mali' disaster, so the historical context is clearer for the player.
I also feel this is a missed opportunity. EU4 has a reputation for big countries becoming steamrollers without the mechanism for them to fall apart like many did historically. I had hoped PC would have mechanisms that simulated the splitting of large countries in general. This makes it look like it only happens to countries like Mali through unique flavour events (or that you don't trust it would happen to Mali through normal processes).

I mean why is this a special disaster for Mali, rather than a general disaster which happens to any large country with a poor ruler, low stability, low legitimacy, diverse cultures, external raiders & external countries looking to take advantage of a poor situation?
 
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Meanwhile no truly actual goldbased economic system has ever seen inflation.
That doesn't make sense. It probably hasn't ever happened because there have been few examples with good records.

If people find a way to get gold more easily then the relative price of gold will drop compared to useful goods. If people find a way to get grain more easily then the relative price of grain will drop compared to all other goods (including gold).

Look at how Roman inflation took off after the conquest of Dacian gold mines, or Spanish inflation took off when gold from the Americas made it more common.
When in fascinating fact, the price of several goods most notably bread has remained entirely stable measured in gold for 5000 years. Both were and still are well understood, old school products. No new innovations worth mentioning. The raw materials are much the same.
See https://guides.slv.vic.gov.au/whatitcost/groceries. Look at the price of bread and how it moved from the 1940s to the 1970s (when the price of gold was fixed; in $A it varied by only 2-3% in total)
 
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Meanwhile no truly actual goldbased economic system has ever seen inflation.
When in fascinating fact, the price of several goods most notably bread has remained entirely stable measured in gold for 5000 years. Both were and still are well understood, old school products. No new innovations worth mentioning. The raw materials are much the same.
Getting data for the price of bread and gold before either were used is seriously impressive. :rolleyes:

The claim is nonsense either way, given that the price of bread is extremely dependent on harvests, which do not affect gold in the same way.

What is true, is that either did not change too much compared to each other when ignoring short time disruptions, as the relative amount of work needed for either stayed similar. New sources of gold and new farming methods lead to permanent changes, though.

But a "truly actually goldbased economic system" might be a higher bar to pass. In modern times, it would suffer from deflationary tendencies, as (almost) every new invention and person increases gold demand (via producing more goods) while the gold supply is hard to increase.

In any case, "inflation" in EU terms is not the same as iRL.
 
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That doesn't make sense. It probably hasn't ever happened because there have been few examples with good records.

If people find a way to get gold more easily then the relative price of gold will drop compared to useful goods. If people find a way to get grain more easily then the relative price of grain will drop compared to all other goods (including gold).

Look at how Roman inflation took off after the conquest of Dacian gold mines, or Spanish inflation took off when gold from the Americas made it more common.

See https://guides.slv.vic.gov.au/whatitcost/groceries. Look at the price of bread and how it moved from the 1940s to the 1970s (when the price of gold was fixed; in $A it varied by only 2-3% in total)
goldprice wasnt fixed that is complete nonsense. That $35 price wasnt a real price anyone could buy gold at. The real price was something else.
In fact owning gold was prohibited for americans.
 
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But if the reason that gold production didn't impact inflation is that gold wasn't used as a currency, then why does the advance about gold production reduce inflation?
It shouldn't affect inflation at all in that case then.

If inflation reduction is just there for gameplay reasons, then it shouldn't have a made up historical reason in the description.
That's a good point, I don't think the development team intends to accurately portray the currency system among these West African States, I imagine it would be very difficult to properly simulate it, since there were at least 4 major currency types, and on some occasions gold was used as a currency.
 
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The visual representation of Mali here seems quite uninspired and generic. A few things I would change:
- The courtroom art in the first picture is based off of Ashanti-Akan architecture that we have recorded from the 17th-18th centuries onward, not what buildings in the Sahel looked like.
- We have no indication that the monarch of Mali would be wearing a turban. Ibn Battuta, who personally saw Mansa Sulaiman in the 1350s, records that the Mansas wore a golden skull-cap srapped across the chin with horns portruding out of the strap. The rest of his clothes were likened to a "European tunic", not the kaftan he's wearing in the game. Way more interesting and foreign than just another bedouin with a turban.
- Ibn Battuta also tells about the common presence and ritual importance of bows and archery in the Malian aristocracy, which (IMO) suggests a nomadic past that still permeates many understandings. We can see also, from what we have left over from them materially, that they were not just an "islamic society" as they seem to be depicted usually, but one that's really brimming with native pagan/African influences with Islam imposed on top of the power structure
In addition, the Mansa wore huge pants, during that period, the size of the pants of a noble was a sign of their presitge, and the Mansa had the largest layers of pants, decorated with pieces displaying the achievements of the the Mansa.
 
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would it be possible for us to get a control map of Mali? you mentioned in one of the replies that one of the starting difficulties was low control in gold provinces so they weren't up to full production, and i just think it would be fun to see
 
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Here I'm going to ask something "bold", will there be a special event or policy to show Mali's attempt to explore the ocean?, considering that even by winds there is a route to America... That could have gone so-so if there hadn't been a storm, considering that Greenland and Iceland have a special flavor for having been part of a culture that had some successful explorations in the short term, I think that the same treatment should be given to all those who also tried or managed to do something similar.
 
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Here I'm going to ask something "bold", will there be a special event or policy to show Mali's attempt to explore the ocean?, considering that even by winds there is a route to America... That could have gone so-so if there hadn't been a storm, considering that Greenland and Iceland have a special flavor for having been part of a culture that had some successful explorations in the short term, I think that the same treatment should be given to all those who also tried or managed to do something similar.
Looks like it
 
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Nice DD, that was a lot of fun to read.

One proposal regarding the wording and icon for whether it is allowed to convert noble pops: I think the icon is a bit cluttered with it's three parts that all compete for space, attention and readability. I also believe it's a bit confusing that the value "Yes" is red and not green, which is usually associated with a positive.

Would it be possible to resolve both these problems by simply switching the question around?

2024_02_04_Conversion.png
 
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Nice DD, that was a lot of fun to read.

One proposal regarding the wording and icon for whether it is allowed to convert noble pops: I think the icon is a bit cluttered with it's three parts that all compete for space, attention and readability. I also believe it's a bit confusing that the value "Yes" is red and not green, which is usually associated with a positive.

Would it be possible to resolve both these problems by simply switching the question around?

View attachment 1250900
They may want to have the non-default state be the thing named here though.
 
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I'm going to post this here for lack of a better place:

Will we have Nestorian content?
I'd love to be able to covnert to Nestorianism rather than becoming zealously Buddhist as the Yuan.
 
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Nice DD, that was a lot of fun to read.

One proposal regarding the wording and icon for whether it is allowed to convert noble pops: I think the icon is a bit cluttered with it's three parts that all compete for space, attention and readability. I also believe it's a bit confusing that the value "Yes" is red and not green, which is usually associated with a positive.

Would it be possible to resolve both these problems by simply switching the question around?

View attachment 1250900

I would take it one step farther changing the line item to "Conversion of Nobles" and use allowed/blocked for right hand item (as I am assuming they are not willing to have a green Check or red X).