Tinto Flavour #4 - 31st of January 2025 - Mali

[LeandroB]

Something about these portraits remind me of late 90s games pre-rendered portraits.

 

[MansaYusef789]

Yes.

This is great especially because historically Mali did "colonize" or settle in the neighboring lands, that is why Kaabu was primarily Mandinka. There is a story about a general Tiramakan who settled largely unhiabited sections of Senegambia.

Is Mali's population and West Africa's population still in review? It's still very very low.

 

[donbg]

There's a gold field in Niani, but after that, the control of your locations that produce gold decreases from 58% in Siguir, two locations away from the capital, to 10% in Diawara, two locations away from the border of Jolof. These numbers may change as they're subject to constant review, but my point is that it will require effort and resources to assert full control and get the gold fields to produce at maximum capacity.

I forget how exactly tribespeople interact with RGOs but my suggestion would be to maybe have the goldfields have a large number of Tribe rather than peasant pops to reflect the level of hostility and refusal that the peoples involved in the extraction of gold had towards authority. There was a genuine lack of cooperation on their part to allowing access to anyone that wasn't a local to the goldfields. Mali failed to assert their presence over them and had to be satisfied with tributes, focusing all their attention instead on securing the commerce.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Oh, forgot to ask.

When playing as states like Songhai and others that spawn from the disaster, will there be any flavor after you split off from Mali(as in, after/not including the starting event)? Unique units, advances etc. Obviously I would not expect as many as Mali proper but still it'd be nice to have something, especially for Songhai but for the others as well.

 

[SuperLexxe]

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I don't think it's been explained before

What exactly is a special levy unit? The images for the "levy units" use manpower, which isn't what levies use, right?

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[yangzilata]

How does the +1 fort level from the Sofa Stockade apply if there’s no existing fort in the city? Can this modifier add a fort level to the city without building a conventional fort?

 

[yangzilata]

View attachment 1249399
This event allows you to start playing with Songhai instead of Mali if you select the third option.​

I’m thinking of a historical parallel: Mithridates I Ctistes, originally ruling the city of Kios (Cius), fled due to threats from Antigonus I and later established the Kingdom of Pontus in Paphlagonia. In Imperator: Rome, this is reflected by Mithridates leaving Kios to form Pontus, with Kios getting a new ruler.

I'm wondering if this event is similar to Mithridates I Ctistes leaving Kios to establish Pontus, with Kios getting a new ruler, and if my current ruler will lead Songhai or if a new leader will take over.

As such,
Question: Does this mean my current ruler will lead the new Songhai state, similar to how in Imperator: Rome Mithridates I Ctistes leaves Kios (Cius) to establish the Kingdom of Pontus in Paphlagonia, with Kios receiving a new ruler afterward?

Or will a different leader take over when I switch to Songhai?

 

[Foke]

Is this not supposed to say that it can promote to farari cavvalry instead of farari infantry since it's the cavalry unit?

 

[yangzilata]

Because it's how it's spelled in Arabic.

Report

I really admire Pavía’s choice to use inverted commas for ‘Umara’ and ‘Ulama.’ By preserving the original Arabic spelling, they show a commitment to cultural authenticity and historical accuracy. It’s refreshing to see the game embracing diverse languages and histories, rather than just relying on English. This approach not only enriches the game world but also elevates it, making it feel like a true work of art in this century.​

 

[Foke]

I’m thinking of a historical parallel: Mithridates I Ctistes, originally ruling the city of Kios (Cius), fled due to threats from Antigonus I and later established the Kingdom of Pontus in Paphlagonia. In Imperator: Rome, this is reflected by Mithridates leaving Kios to form Pontus, with Kios getting a new ruler.

I'm wondering if this event is similar to Mithridates I Ctistes leaving Kios to establish Pontus, with Kios getting a new ruler, and if my current ruler will lead Songhai or if a new leader will take over.

As such,
Question: Does this mean my current ruler will lead the new Songhai state, similar to how in Imperator: Rome Mithridates I Ctistes leaves Kios (Cius) to establish the Kingdom of Pontus in Paphlagonia, with Kios receiving a new ruler afterward?

Or will a different leader take over when I switch to Songhai?

Why would the Mali ruler suddenly be the Songhai ruler? Obviously it will be a new leeader

 

[yangzilata]

... but open to feedback.

I really like the idea of using different looks to show cultural differences, but I think we should keep it real and not make every Muslim king look exactly like Mansa Musa. Sure, Musa’s style works well to show he’s an emperor with Islamic influence, but not all African kings were like that.

Here’s what I’m thinking:

1. Regional Flavor:
   Use the basic 'Sub-Saharan African' model for all rulers but mix in some local styles. For example, a ruler from the Sahel might have a bit of a Middle Eastern twist—maybe some patterned fabrics or a specific type of headwear that hints at Islamic influence. Meanwhile, a king from West Africa could wear styles that are more in tune with local traditions, like using bright colors or unique jewelry that nods to local customs. This way, the game feels more true to the different vibes across Africa.
2. Rank-Based Styles:
   Keep the tiered look to show who’s who, but give each rank a unique twist that fits its cultural background. For instance, an emperor like Mansa Musa could have extra ornate clothing with detailed embroidery and a special crown, while a regional king might have simpler, yet still impressive, gear. This clear distinction helps players immediately see who’s in charge, just like how different uniforms work in sports teams.
3. Historical Touch:
   History shows that African kingdoms were super diverse. Even in Islamic kingdoms, clothing mixed local customs with Islamic influence. Think about it: historical records and art often show rulers in a blend of styles—like combining a traditional African robe with elements of Arabic design.
4. Fictional X (e.g. Brazilian) Muslim Rulers:

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Mali in Brazil: Where Indigenous Art Meets Islamic Elegance​

Imagine a scenario where Mali colonizes Brazil before the Christians do. In this case, Brazilian Muslim rulers would have a unique blend of local indigenous styles mixed with standard Muslim clothing.

"They might wear traditional Brazilian patterns or accessories inspired by native art, combined with elements like flowing robes or turbans that you’d expect in Muslim dress."
​

This hybrid style would be both fresh and grounded in history, showing respect for local traditions while staying true to Islamic aesthetics.

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In short, by giving each region and ruler their own style, we not only celebrate Africa’s awesome diversity but also make the game world feel more real and engaging.

 

[za3tarani]

Because it's how it's spelled in Arabic.

there are 2 letters missing in english for the word, one in the start (ع) and at the end (ة), it could have been written 'ulamah though, as the last letter is basically h.

 

[yangzilata]

Why would the Mali ruler suddenly be the Songhai ruler? Obviously it will be a new leeader

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but the example I gave with Mithridates I Ctistes is about how a ruler from one place might end up founding a new kingdom somewhere else while the old territory gets a new ruler. The key point here is that, just like in Imperator: Rome, when Mithridates left Kios to create Pontus, it didn’t mean Kios would stay under the same ruler—it got a new one.

So, in this case, I’m wondering if, when transitioning to Songhai, my current ruler stays in power or if, like Mithridates’ move, a new ruler would take charge of the original Mali state. It’s not necessarily about a sudden shift in leadership but about how the game mechanics might handle this change of territory.

Also, will the game give me the option to move the Songhai ruler to the new kingdom or will I be stuck with the declining Mali state for a while, or will there be a choice to stay as the old ruler and manage both realms in some way (Like an Unique African type of Personal Union)? Just curious how flexible the transition will be!

 

[za3tarani]

does mali start technological disadvantages? (and the rest of the world besides europe?)

 

[RohenTahir]

good, portraits gets more "2d" look, artistic, much more better than plastic CK portraits

 

[Mef]

It seems like an abstraction, because "Gold" was not the actual currency for the Mali Empire, Cowries, Iron bars, coins, and rings, cloth and beads were more often used as currency. So producing more gold did not necessarily increase inflation. Also they used the Gold to purchase tools, weapons and other goods from distant markets, and they used those resources to invest, and expand the empire.

But if the reason that gold production didn't impact inflation is that gold wasn't used as a currency, then why does the advance about gold production reduce inflation?
It shouldn't affect inflation at all in that case then.

If inflation reduction is just there for gameplay reasons, then it shouldn't have a made up historical reason in the description.

 

[Redwallzyl]

Here are actual contemporary descriptions of the Mansas including the rare source. The art and clothing should reflect these descriptions. Notably the ebony throne surrounded by tusks and the umbrellas along with royal guards. Along with the clothing of the Mansa and others.

This is an essentially fictional depiction. There is a description of Musa by al-Umari, but the actual text seems elusive and has thus far only been reproduced in Levtzion's Corpus of Early Arabic Sources for West African History. In typical African History fashion, the text has a very restricted publication, and I've only encountered it once in the wild -- in a university archive.

Corpus of Early Arabic Sources for West African History
Description of the Mansa and his throne and court.

Medieval Sourcebook Ibn Battuta (1304-1368/69): Travels in Asia and Africa, 1325-1354

Internet History Sourcebooks: Medieval Sourcebook

Description of the Mansa and his court.

Additionally Songhai:

Timbuktu and the Songhay Empire: Al-Saʻdi's Taʼrīkh al-Sūdān down to 1613, and other contemporary documents
Description of the Throne of Songhai

Description of Songhai symbols, unlike the completely fictional shape used for their flag in game. The din-turi would make far more sense as the symbol of state.

 

[Stein14]

As gold was mostly an exported commodity, Mali could sustain a higher level of relative monetization, compared to other economies; it could indeed be reworded, as it's a bit simple and tautological ATM.

Many powers flood their own markets with precious metals and suffer from severe inflation as a result. We have learned from this and are flooding our neighbors' markets instead.

 

[nyetflix2]

The Dyula was the merchant caste among the Mande-speaking people, and they're over-represented among the Wangara, yes.

TL;DR - Dioula culture is fine for the merchants. Events should be added for Dyula migrations across West Africa, that develop new trade routes, expand trade/production of gold/kola/textiles and spread Islam a little bit.

Upon further reading it appears the trading communities were originally mainly Soninke, but largely adopted the Manding language around the 14th century, to become what is now known as the Dyula ethnicity. Wangara and Dioula seem to be roughly amibiguously interchangeable as terms. So I would say your design makes sense after all, even if this cultural shift would have still been ongoing or just starting in 1337, it would make more sense the longer the game goes on.

In a different vein, Dioula/Wangara migrations and diaspora in the period of Project Caesar were extensive:

This book should have accurate information on the destinations + timeframes of these migrations, but it may be incomplete. Elsewhere online, I find a lot of different possibilities, some of which seem to contradict each other. This book should be a good starting point though.

I think this could be handled in game with a series of events happening to many countries in the West African region, triggering migration of Dyula merchant pops. Unlike the Ostsiedlung in Europe, I don't think I've seen any evidence that they were specifically invited by local rulers or that they filled a manpower/population deficit, but these migrations were largely peaceful and impactful in both expansion of commerce + production (particularly gold, kola nuts, textiles) and Islamization (especially local nobilities). In the forest zone, the natives were often distrustful of the Dioulas, and sometimes there were raids that had to be put down by Mandinka warrior castes (which we can note were still largely animist at this time).

source: West African Culture Dynamics: Archaeological and Historical Perspectives - Β. K. SWARTZ, JR. RAYMOND E. DUMETT (chapter The Julas in Western Sudanese History: Long-Distance Traders and Developers of Resources)

I may try to research the timeline of Fula migrations next, another series of events that would a lot of flavor to West Africa.... essentially they should migrate eastwards across the Sahel as far as Chad/Baguirmi, and they would make a lot of sense as one or more SoPs, seeing as how they operated in parallel to states and often challenged them. I thought about looking into Hausa trading diasporas too, but the timeframe mostly seems too late for the game.

 

[nyetflix2]

Perhaps the Suwarian Tradition could be an estate privilege granting high tolerance for the various animist religions, but slowing down conversion significantly?