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Tinto Flavour #4 - 31st of January 2025 - Mali

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays in which we take a look at the flavourful content created for the super secret Project Caesar! But before we start, I want to share with you that we have a new job opening in Paradox Tinto: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/come-work-for-tinto.1727521/

Today we will be traveling throughout the Sahara toward the Sahel, where the Empire of Mali stands, ruled by the infamous Mansa Mūsā:

"The mighty Mansa Mūsā Keita of Mali astonished the world one decade ago, when he performed his Ḥajj ('pilgrimage') to Mecca. Such an event was recorded by chroniclers and chanted by minstrels, and it served to establish his fame as the richest man as he spread his prodigality, gifting Zakāh ('almsgiving') gold wherever his long and luxurious courtly caravan passed by.

This display of splendor might have reflected the richnesses of the Malian lands, after its Empire expanded and consolidated under the Keita dynasty. However, one day Mansa Mūsā will pass away, and his successors may not find it so easy to rule over his very diverse holdings..."

Country Selection.png

The mighty Mansa Mūsā is still ruling Mali in 1337 (we don’t know exactly when he died, so we decided to have him as the ruler at the start of the game). As usual, please consider the UI, 2D and 3D art as WIP.

And here are the lands of Mali:
Mali.png

Some more fun camera rotations this week! Today, with the flat map mode on again.

Mali starts with one Vassal, which is Jolof:
Jolof 1.png

Jolof 2.png

Let’s take a look at some Government-related features of Mali, which can be checked in the Estates window:
Estates.png

There is one starting government reform for Mali, the Manden Kurufa:
Manden Kurufa.png

You might also notice that all Estates start with a privilege with the same icon, as it’s a similar one, made to portray the religious diversity of Mali, a country ruled largely by Mande-speaking Sunni people, but with a fragmented, but tolerant, society:
Protected Faith.png

Religions.png

The second screenshot comes from a tooltip on the Religious panel and shows the religious distribution of the country. Please note that we’ve already done the ‘Pagan’ split, but haven’t yet incorporated feedback from the West African Tinto Maps, nor reviewed the starting population.

There are also a couple of unique privileges for the 'Umarā', the Nobility of the country, that may be available later on after an event triggers:
Office of the Farima-Soura.png

Office of the Sankar-Zouma.png

Mali also starts with a couple of unique policies enacted, the first for the Distribution of Power estate law, and the other for the Levy Law military law:
Gbra.png

Ton-tan-jon-ta-ni-woro.png

Mali also starts with 3 Works of Art:
Works of Art.png

Let’s now take a look at some unique advances:
Koroukan Faga.png

This advance is the one that unlocks the Manden Kurufa government reform.

Gold of Bure.png

Mali is famous for its gold exports, yeah…

Mali has a bunch of unique units, also:
Mandekalu Levies.png

Here are the Levy units unlocked by it:
Mandekalu Infantry.png

Mandekalu Horsemen.png

You might note that the description of these two levy units refers to the Farari Corps, which is the following advance:
Farari Corps.png

That unlocks the following Regular units:
Farari Infantry.png

Farari Cavalry.png

Another unique advance:
Kele-Koun.png

That unlocks the Jonow Auxiliary, an Auxiliary unit:
Jonow Auxiliary.png

Finally, another military advance, that unlocks one more unit, and two more buildings:
Sofa Levies.png

Sofa Infantrymen.png

Sofa Barracks.png

Sofa Stockade.png

Let’s now take a look at the narrative content. This event will trigger while Mansa Mūsā is still alive, as an announcement of the potentially harsh time to come:
Zenith of the Mali Empire.png

This is the disaster that may end up triggering for your country, ‘Decline of Mali’:
Decline of Mali 1.png

It will trigger a number of nasty events, such as:
A fragmented realm.png

This event allows you to start playing with Songhai instead of Mali if you select the third option.

If you overcome the disaster, you’ll get a reward, in terms of Prestige, Stability, etc. (we need to do some balance tweaks on it, so there might be more!).

Nonetheless, besides the disaster, you can also get nicer events while playing as Mali, such as some about the development of Timbuktu:
Bolstering Timbuktu.png

And that’s all for today! I hope you enjoyed it! Next week we will travel back to Europe, to the lands of the Crown of Aragon! Cheers!
 
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Can you tell me if this information is also present at the 'lobby' (Country selection screen)?

This type of information will help me decide to play a country more that a 3d model in a throne room.

I also agree that "Urban locations" should change to Locations where there number presented will be Urban / Rural
I would add the estate card to the information presented at the lobby (Even if it is just Icon : power value , satisfaction value)
Yes, and the display is more visual (e.g., you can see the cultural and religious distribution of your country more in detail).
 
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Oh, yeas, there's a debate about 1332 or 1337. For those interested, here is the Wiki entrance, that links to some academic works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansa_Musa#Death

We decided upon the most commonly accepted date of 1337, though.

Thank you! There is a very good article that covers whether he died in 1332 or 1337 that you might like.

Bell, Nawal Morcos. “The Age of Mansa Musa of Mali: Problems in Succession and Chronology.” The International Journal of African Historical Studies, vol. 5, no. 2, 1972, pp. 221–34. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/217515.

There are many inconsistencies in general about when he died due to the lack of sources and good arguments can be made for either the 1332 or 1337 date. Personally, I prefer the 1332 date simply because the goat DT Niane thinks so in his writings.
 
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Farari%20Corps.png
  1. For most things in this list it goes <icon><name of thing><effect>, this isn't true for unlocks and allows I have noticed. For allows the icon isn't for the allow but what is being allowed. The Farari Infantry doesn't feel like the effect but instead the <thing>.
    1. I think these should be altered to "<Icon> Farari Infantry Allows"
  2. Is the "Regular Regiment" part needed?
 
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That's very good to start with Mansa Musa, even if he dies shortly after he's an iconic Historical character

And his stats are good no ?
90/66/50 is like 5/4/3 in EUIV more or less ?
 
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Are we working on a fix so that Mali Empire and Mali don't appear three times each on this map?
If we find the solution can we apply it to the other maps (if I am looking at a contiguous blob of forest I don't need it listed a dozen times in it)
Mali.png
Yes, already reported, I hope our programmers have time to fix it anytime soon.
 
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Oh, yeas, there's a debate about 1332 or 1337. For those interested, here is the Wiki entrance, that links to some academic works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansa_Musa#Death

We decided upon the most commonly accepted date of 1337, though.
Thank you very much for the detailed look at Mali, I'll be looking forward to playing this nation!

I completely agree with Mansa Musa being the ruler at the start date. I know there are debates on it but, like you said, we don't know when exactly in 1337 he would've died and how. Also, he was only about 57 when he died so it would seem weird to me to force his death and not have scenarios where he lived longer.
 
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Areas.jpg
Topography.jpg
Compare Areas and Topography. E.g. the placement of Doab and its accompanying flatlands, or the small neighboring Kholkihand flatland. There is one label per connected section with the same topography class and area (hence there is only one bit flatland label in Bengal). Any change in area or class counts as a boundary for this purpose.
How could the get away with less in the climate map? Rajputana and Sindh appear to be sharing an Arid and the upper Subtropical appears to be crossing 6 areas.
Climate.jpg
That could lead to awkward behavior when moving the camera or zooming. A angled mapview would also be weird.
But, as at least these maps are not changeable, the labels could also be hardcoded later?
Angled maps? you mean like in the Novgorod TF? I don't see how it would be a problem if they can do it will country names.

The labels for countries follow different rules as what counts as a separate section - just connected locations belonging to the same country. Country names are only repeated for disjoint exclaves / islands.
But the logic needed should be the same between the maps.
 
Is there any colonization content for them? If thing go well for them they are in a prime position for some colonization
Yes.
 
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Will these buildings and units have their own unique illustrations and artwork?

If you don't currently have the resources for it... should I make some?
mfw Mali emperor in Asante throneroom

Are there plans to give West Sudanic states (Mali, Songhai, I'll throw in the Hausa and Kanem-Bornu states here too) their own unique art (could be a set of generic assets for each of these, since ig they're similar enough)? It feels quite odd to give the Mali Empire throne-room art associated with modern Ghana -- even stranger given that art is filled with motifs the increasingly islamized Mali emperors would have surely seen as pagan, and given the Mali state had no serious connections to Ghana, aside from as conquerors in the region of Begho/Bono.
We'd like to eventually increase the granularity of the 2D and 3D art. But you may have noticed already that the content of the game is massive, with thousands of countries, cultures, religions, etc. So we need to be smart and add the art on a hierarchical way, from the most generic to the most unique.
 
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Farari%20Infantry.png
  1. Why is combat power green? is 1.00 better than something is this compared to something else?
  2. Why is Unit Weight per Strength red? Is 100.00% bad? Is it bad compared to some other value?
  3. As you are mixing % with other values please adjust the non % values over so they line up with the % numbers
  4. Is the maintenance monthly? If so why separate out the manpower
  5. Is there a reason this is using a format like this for maintenance and construction requirements
    1738348808219.png
  6. I would call it construction costs (instead of requirements for construction) and put the three icons below it like in #5
  7. I would call it Monthly Maintenance instead of Requirements for Maintenance and put the four icons below including the manpower icon
  8. The order and presence of unit statistics seem to vary between the units that have been shown so far and makes it hard to compare types.
 
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We'd like to eventually increase the granularity of the 2D and 3D art. But you may have noticed already that the content of the game is massive, with thousands of countries, cultures, religions, etc. So we need to be smart and add the art on a hierarchical way, from the most generic to the most unique.
Still, if you are in need, I do have experience in those.

I understand that you have way too much artwork to do, which is why I am my offering my humble volunteer work
 
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How could the get away with less in the climate map? Rajputana and Sindh appear to be sharing an Arid and the upper Subtropical appears to be crossing 6 areas.
I don't know? It's just obvious in the topography map. The climate map appears to have different rules (maybe some unknown level above area). Though, climate zones are also generally larger and less mixed.
Angled maps? you mean like in the Novgorod TF? I don't see how it would be a problem if they can do it will country names.
Country names do not repeat. And the "zoom level" of the foreground is very different from the background. Text on a map that has more than one view angle really doesn't like to change depending on zoom.

But the logic needed should be the same between the maps.
Depends. Maps do not actually need labels at all, just a legend for the color code. This legend would just be too unwieldy for political maps, hence countries are normally labelled as well as colored.
Country borders normally behave in different ways than vegetation/topography. Geographical features do not care about "bordergore", the flatland "empire" has holdings on the entire world, even connected. But I do not want to have to scroll to Siberia to see that name. Repeating the topographic label more often helps to keep the labels smaller (on the order of the variation).
Political maps get away with one label per connected region because countries will generally be connected and at the same time there are so many of them.


Country labels definitely should treat sections connected by colored wastelands as one section (if that option is selected), however. So there needs to be only one label for the Mali Empire when that setting is chosen.
 
We'd like to eventually increase the granularity of the 2D and 3D art. But you may have noticed already that the content of the game is massive, with thousands of countries, cultures, religions, etc. So we need to be smart and add the art on a hierarchical way, from the most generic to the most unique.
How much diversity should we expect for Africa? Will most African kings be decked out just like early Mansa Musa, with the Muslims getting Musa’s new fit?

IMG_5434.png
IMG_5436.png
 
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There is evidence that Mansa Musa was already dead in 1337 and his brother Mansa Suleyman was in power that you guys must have missed. Also, will there be a special building for the university of Timbuktu itself besides the great works?
I think they knew but still decided to go with Musa because he's one of the most famous sub saharan rulers of all time, and pretty cool to play with. And anyhow the historians are still debating over the fact with the majority agreeing he died sometime 1337.
 
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Why are there "Farari infantry"? Doesn't "Farari" correlate to the Arabic "Ferrari" (ie: cavalry)

I'm sure you all looked into this more than me, but don't most depictions of Mansa Musa depict him with a beard?
Maybe there's some sources from during his Hajj that describe his appearance, but it feels like he should have a big, bushy beard.

View attachment 1249415
This is an essentially fictional depiction. There is a description of Musa by al-Umari, but the actual text seems elusive and has thus far only been reproduced in Levtzion's Corpus of Early Arabic Sources for West African History. In typical African History fashion, the text has a very restricted publication, and I've only encountered it once in the wild -- in a university archive.

Talk about cultural assimilationView attachment 1249417
jokes aside the models keep getting better in my opinion, good job!
Note that David essentially is the same name as "Dawud" / "Daud", which does appear in various parts of Africa (including the region in question). Musa is also a corollary for Moses, so Mansa Musa is technically King Moses.

from the most generic to the most unique.
Just a bit confused is all. "Western Sudan" assets could be far more generalized than assets for Asante/Akans. Even if I like Asante.

edit: please do not give Ethiopian monarchs Gondarine throne rooms.
 
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