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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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a) language isn't always the same as culture
This will always be a bad argument, because it's far easier to objectively talk about isoglosses than it is to "objectively compare cultures" especially in situations where both language and culture gradually shift with no clean break. So it stands to reason that any argument based on culture will always be more abstract, more wishy-washy and more arbitrary than linguistic-based arguments.
 
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Why does the location of Saarbrücken produce Iron? While Iron was mined there Coal was a far more important good to the region or will there be a trade good change later. Its especially weird considering the Saarland is kinda famous for Coal. Also technically the counts of Nassau-Saarbrücken only gained mining rights in 1371.
 
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With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

View attachment 1130588
The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

View attachment 1130589
We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

View attachment 1130889

Rather impressed with the accuracy of the map.

If you need help with finding relatively accurate sources of dutch coastlines at this time, I'd suggest this map as the primary basis for an early coastline, which is not that huge a departure from what is currently represented. Between 1350 and 1800 are the most changes due to flooding in this period, which would make the haarlemmermeer grow massively until the dutch poldered it in later in the 19th century.

Another choice could be a minimalist approach, which would most likely end up with at a map around the year 1600, where the low countries in area would be the smallest thanks to flooding, bad dyke maintanence and 80 years war. After this the republic would start recovering all the lakes and would grow in size again.
Political_map_of_the_Low_Countries_(1350)-NL.svg.png

Onto some immediate things that should be looked into
1715359834561.png

I have numbered them:

1, 2, 3, 4 - Friesland (West Friesland is a contentious name as it can also rever to the location of Hoorn, which is West Friesland in Dutch. Meanwhile the province of Friesland in the Netherlands today was in medieval times known as Middle Friesland)
1. Harlingen is a good location, it's a somewhat important naval base of the states of friesland in the 17th century when it took that title from Dokkum. This is part of the historical region of Westergo. Franeker is a second option, it would be given a University but Harlingen is fine.
2. Dokkum and Leeuwarden are problematic as both are part of the historical region of Oostergo. Leeuwarden is the more important city here. Dokkum is important but there are many cities to represent and some have to be sacrificed. I have highlighted where Leeuwarden is on the map with the black line to the Red Dot.
3. Makkum is a bad choice for this province. This province is part of the Westergo region and would be better served with 2 far more important cities, a coastal trading city which is in decline by this period, Stavoren or Sneek, an up and coming city which is the 4th largest settlement of Friesland in modern times. Makkum however should not be picked. It is not part of the 11 Cities that were given city rights and while somewhat sizable throughout, it is far overshadowed in importance by Stavoren or Sneek.
4. This location should be rethought. It is part of the historical region known as Zevenwouden. The only city of the 11 cities that was here was Sloten. A very marginal settlement today and one that failed to properly develop. However other two good options are Heerenveen and Drachten. These are the Second and Third Largest Settlements in modern Friesland and would grow to become these important settlements during most of this period. Overshadowing places like Sloten.

5, 6, 7, 8 - This covers Groningen and Drenthe, in modern times two sparsely populated provinces of the Netherlands.
5, an option should be kept here for a location of Winsum. While not strictly necessary, it would be better to have Groningen have more locations and Drenthe fewer. Winsum was part of the Frisian Freedom and the largest settlement in the region of Hunsingo. Appingedam would then function as the location for Fivelgo and Wedde can be Oldambt. The three historical regions of the Ommelanden.
6. Groningen is a tough location. While modern day in the province of Groningen. Historically it belonged De Jure to the Oversticht and to the Bishop of Utrecht. The city however acted in defiance of the bishop and operated as an effective Free City. It would be great if it could be it's own independant location and entity in the game.
7. Assen and Emmen are both okay choices as locations. Assen is however the Capital of Drenthe and Drenthe should probably get one less location given it's historic poverty.
8. Coevorden is located much further east than is shown, I have highlighted where it should be.

9. Overijssel is in a good spot. However I would keep the historical regions more intact. Enschede is part of the region of Twente. And Twente has pretty well defined borders which could be used for it instead. It would shrink Deventer a little, but that can be compensated in the Zwolle Location a bit.

10. Somewhat of a shame to not have included Bentheim. A County which existed from c. 1050 till 1806. Lingen can move over a little. Having an extra location here wouldn't hurt given how massive Meppen is.

11, 12, 13 Gelre has historically been seperated into 4 quarters. These being Veluwe or Arnhem Quarter, the Nijmegen Quarter, Opper-Gelre and the County of Zutphen.
11. Apeldoorn can be cut, it's better if each quarter of Gelre has two Locations. Harderwijk has priority here as it would gain a University and was a Hanseatic City. Arnhem is the modern day capital of Gelderland and it's a major city in the Netherlands. Arnhem location also isn't including Arnhem the city. I have added a line here.
12. Splitting Zutphen and Doetinchem north to south like this is a bit cleaner. It allows for Doetinchem to also act as the minor baronies (or heerlijkheden) of Bergh, Wisch, Bredevoort and Borculo
13. Adding in Tiel in the western part of the Betuwe or Nijmegen Quarter would be a good choice as it was still contested between Brabant and Gelre at this time. I believe even that Tiel was part of Brabant at the startdate.

14. This is one of the regions that would be sea until the 20th century. It's called the Wieringermeerpolder or Wieringermeer at this time. Named for the tiny island that is to the northeast of this.
15. The Alkmaar location essentially covers the historical region of Kennemerland and Waterland. Given that Haarlem is the capital of North Holland. It would probably be better to make this location into Haarlem instead of Alkmaar. Although both are decent options.

16. Gouda isn't in the Gouda Location
17. Rotterdam is blocking off Dordrecht from the coast and is taking room from Dordrecht
18. Dordrecht isn't in the Dordrecht Location, I have highlighted where it ought to be.

Forgot to give it a number, but giving the province of utrecht one more location is probably smart. It's a far more wealthy and densely populated region of the Netherlands than Zeeland or Drenthe which were given 2. Amersfoort in the East is a good choice.
 

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This will always be a bad argument, because it's far easier to objectively talk about isoglosses than it is to "objectively compare cultures" especially in situations where both language and culture gradually shift with no clean break. So it stands to reason that any argument based on culture will always be more abstract, more wishy-washy and more arbitrary than linguistic-based arguments.
And I consider equating language distribution with culture to be a bad argument. I've seen it way too often that someone just gets a linguistic map from Wikipedia and then defines a bunch of cultures based on that.

You can look at sources to see what the people in those times thought. Who did they marry? Who did they feud with? Who did the ally with? Who did they align with when they were eventually absorbed into a bigger entitity?

Why does the location of Saarbrücken produce Iron? While Iron was mined there Coal was a far more important good to the region or will there be a trade good change later. Its especially weird considering the Saarland is kinda famous for Coal. Also technically the counts of Nassau-Saarbrücken only gained mining rights in 1371.
Agreed that it's weird, but this thread is about the Low Countries and not Germany, so no point in discussing it right now.
 
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General question to devs: can location names change in time? I don't mean names changing based on who owns the location, but something like a historical settlement that's relevant early in the timeline being replaced by a different one in the area that becomes more important later on.
 
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Antwerpen is quite convenient gameplay-wise as a center, as it's in between Köln and London market centers. But testing Brugge instead of Antwerpen is something that we've internally discussed, and that we may do soon.
If you chose to have the market centered around Brugge, you could then build events in the XVth century that make the Zwin get silted like historically. Those event would make commercial access to Brugge fall drastically fragilizing it's market. That way, in the XVth or XVIth century, you could either have the region being eaten by another market, or have another market centered around another city in the netherlands appear (which could be Antwerpen as historically or any other city that is thriving at this point in the game). That way you could have a more historical start that could lead to interesting alternate history
 
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It’s really glad that one of my suggestion about the color of French puppets inspired by HOI4 TFV dlc is now a part of the game. (Of course, the most likely situation is that I am flattering myself. XD)

But this leads to another problem: things like Nassau are hard to be distinguished with French puppets. The present situation is not unacceptable, but some adjustments can make this better.

I can only come up with the idea that adjusting the color for Nassau, but for Bavaria? For other blue country? I have no idea.
 
Will you simulate things like Sri Lanka loosing its land bridge in 1480? It doesn't need to be represented on the map, but to use EU4 mechanics, you could have a strait crossing that gets removed around the historical time frame.
 
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Will we be able to change the game settings to enable a zoom to terrain political map mode a la Imperator Rome? The community seems split on this and it will be great to see the terrain of the map by just zooming in. Thank you!
 
We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)
Great work!
I wonder why the cultural borders are mostly orientated on borders of nowadays political entities.
For instance the idea of a dutch nation or german nation were not present at that time. Despite that the cultural borders and province and location borders tend to represent the borders of current political entities. So from a historical point of view I prefer option 2 (gamelplay pov unsure). Plus, in these times up to many centuries later religion was the main identity forming element far ahead of dialects spoken and even far less standard „languages“, we know pf today.
Here the language map of the lower saxon languages:
 

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Could you make the shapes of the boundaries of locations and provinces follow the shape of major rivers like the Rhine and Danube?
There is no point given that many locations cross these rivers an the rivers themselves split up into new distributaries all over the place.

Dordrecht, Rotterdam, Nijmegen as examples of locations crossing the main flow of the Rhine.
 
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Some more accurate naming suggestions for certain locations for the northern low countries:

1. Assen --> "Noord Drenthe" (the modern day Drenthe was basically barren land at the end of medieval times; had no towns, only scattered hamlets - Assen was site of an abbey that only went beyond a small village in the 18th century)
2. Emmen --> "Oost Drenthe"(again, modern day Drenthe had no towns in medieval times - Emmen also remained a small village during the time period of Project Caesar)
3. Zwolle --> Zwolle was an important city in that location, but so was Kampen for that matter, a good alternative would be "Salland" (basically comprising the area of the location
4. Enschede --> this area is and was typically called "Twente", but if you want to stick to a name for a city "Oldenzaal" was the most important urbanish area, more important that Enschede for a long time (covering most of Project Caesar's time period)
5. Doetinchem --> a more important city in this area for most of the period covering Project Caesar was "Doesburg", also a Hanseatic city like Kampen, Zwolle, Deventer and Zutphen. Doetinchem never got an upgrade of its medieval city walls, while Doesburg was deemed more important during the 17th century, receiving modernized star fort like layout
6. Apeldoorn ---> also an insignificant place until towards the end of the time period covering Project Caesar, more appropriate would be "Veluwe" basically the name for the region (also during that period
7. Hoorn --> perhaps "West Friesland" as another important city of equal weight (especially during the earlier time period) is "Medemblik" where Counts of Holland had a castle and which also served as an important trading down during the Dutch Golden Age

Some other comments:
8. Arnhem --> naming is appropriate, however, I'm in doubt of location placement of Apeldoorn vs. Arnhem, but have no better alternative
9. Someone mentioned the lack of "Haarlem" (area west of Amsterdam), which was an important urban area, at the start of the game of equal weight to Amsterdam, Den Haag, Alkmaar, etc.
10. Likewise "Delft" is missing (which could cover the eastern part of 'Den Haag' and the western part of 'Rotterdam' (i.e. Delfshaven))
 
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sweat-sweating.gif

Current livefeed from my home office right.
 
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3 Drenthes, but no Bentheim. Travesty. Heck, any of these minor provinces would be richer than all of Drenthe haha.



View attachment 1130887



Drenthe is fine.... I guess. Just give us Bentheim please.
Drenthe is the poorest of the republic, a filthy rich region of the world. Being poor compared to them is rich compared to Russia. Compared to Bentheim or neighbouring german regions it's probably quite equally matched. But yea. Bentheim should be added. I agree with that part.
 
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The HRE looks like someone loaded a shotgun with paint and fired it at the map. I love it! And glad the team is taking feedback like reinstating a low countries market.

What's the distinction between "farmland" and "grassland"? I don't imagine wast tracks of north-west continental europe was used for pastoralism.

The religious map seems more deeply shaded on the coast. Just a stylistic choice or is there something different there?
 
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I don't think there ever was a river through Bruges, as drawn here (more than a sea inlet, I mean) ?

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10. Likewise "Delft" is missing (which could cover the eastern part of 'Den Haag' and the western part of 'Rotterdam' (i.e. Delfshaven))
Wouldn't it be even better to just rename the Hague to Delft for the 1337 map?
 
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Would the population of each location setted by the area of each location in one certain province( for example setting the all population of west flanders as xxxxx and split population of every location in west flanders by number of pixels?)
Or just designing population of each location one by one? Or at least modders could design population of these one by one?