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Pavía

Content Design Lead PDX Tinto
Paradox Staff
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Jan 3, 2006
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Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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Are you planning to do Tinto Maps for all regions of the globe?

Weekly map feedback structured like dev diaries is a great idea and I am glad that it is happening.
Yes
 
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What's the justification for having Dutch and Flemish cultures be separate in 1337? Obviously there's different dialects here and there but they are more related to one another than to for instance Low German, and I'm not sure there would have been a sharp distinction between a northern "Dutch" and a southern "Flemish" before modernity. Full disclaimer it's not like I'm an expert in the area, just wanted to ask.

Shouldn't Overjissel be Low German culture as well, given that that's the main language there?

A Picard culture is exciting though.
We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)
 
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I believe the Low Countries had a heavy dependence on English wool to supply its cloth production (its main industry at the time) around the beginning of the HYW. This was important enough to impact the diplomacy around the war. So I'm not sure if having wool resources nearby would fit with the historical economic dynamics of the area.
If you go heavy on producing Cloth in your cities (and you really can in this region), you might need to import more Wool from other markets. ;)
 
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Ooh, nice!

On terrain:
mandatory "what are the comprehensive possible climates, topographies and vegetation levels?" question, so that we can react on those with better insight
mandatory "will any or all of climate/topography/vegetation be dynamic?" question

On trade goods:
legumes => vegetables, medicaments => drugs/medicine (do you have a mad frenchman on the team doing the naming^^?)
fruit => fruits?
What is Alum? short for aluminum, or a hydrated double sulfate salt (thanks wikipedia)? or something else?
Johan delivering on notice: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/reference-materials-for-the-map-thread.1675562/
 
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I'm curious why we didn't see a map of province so that we could also discuss about the grouping of locations?

We will do it in the future talks.
 
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My English vocab might be limited, but what is those Sturdy Grains in Utrecht? How is it different from wheat?
Also I'm not sure about the total number of goods, but I think a lot of them are sharing the same white color like wool, pearl, gems, marble, and salt? Is it possible to differentiate them using strips or something? Or maybe we have a map mode that can select and highlight one particular good like what we have in EU4?
The game's description of Sturdy Grains:

"Sturdy Grains are different kinds of cereal grasses that have been domesticated in many parts of the World at different points in time ever since the Neolithic. Their greater resistance to poor quality soils and dry conditions have made them into a more important food source in semi-arid regions compared to other kinds of grain."

About the color of the goods, it's not the same white, but we'll check if we can make them a bit more different.
 
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Are name abbreviations going to be a thing for the political map? Personally, I find "Zee." harder to interpret than a small "Zeeland" which I would just zoom in to see.
We are still testing how we want this to appear on the political map. You might have noticed that there is certain region to the east of the Low Countries which poses some challenge about this...
 
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I don't understand why Ripuarian (frankish?) is so much in the south? Those German cultures around Luxemburg and Trier are called Moselfrankish. Ripuarian is around cologne and Aachen, and yes I am from that area.
WIP that we will be reviewing soon.
 
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I'm curious why we didn't see a map of province so that we could also discuss about the grouping of locations?
Here you are, and I'll also add to the main post:

Provinces.jpg
 
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Are there toggles in settings to show locations borders or province borders in the political map? Right now, locations are not shown or even slightly perceived there.

Depends on zoom level
 
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What is the difference between a Wood and a Forest for the game?

I googled it as I was unsure myself, and always thought of them as synonymous, and the result said;
Forest is denser vegetation than Woods.
 
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Can we have that be a setting we can change? While the "zoom in to change mapmode" was cute when first debuted... I kinda just want to have control of my mapmodes myself. Let me press keys to change the map, and have zoom just... zoom.

When you zoom out enough its just black jitters.
 
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Maybe it is better to call the ecoomic market the Market of Brugge since it was the main trading centre at that time, also shouldn't Arras/Atrecht still be producing wool(products)? Also maybe make the Veluwe a forested area. Then again my knowledge of the Lowlands during the 14-15 century isn't that great.
Yeah at the start of the game brugge was definitely the commercial centre of the low countries, antwerp's rise would only come later, during the eu4 time period.
Antwerpen is quite convenient gameplay-wise as a center, as it's in between Köln and London market centers. But testing Brugge instead of Antwerpen is something that we've internally discussed, and that we may do soon.
 
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