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Thank you as always for the interesting updates :)

I have a question in regards to the map feedback: Do you have some ground rules written down somewhere in regards to which kinds of tags are you looking for to be on your map for Project Caesar? Things like:

- What constitutes a (independent) tag in Caesar?
- Which tier of the feudal vassal-system are represented through unique tags in Caeaser and which ones aren't?
- Are province redrawings still possible or not?
1. Yes
2. This is more depending on the region, because the feudal system greatly diverged on how ot was shaped and organized among different regions of the world.
3. Yes, this is one of the reasons behind Tinto Maps :)
 
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What a dream that the first tinto talk map discussion is about my home region!

I'd like to point out a few things that could be improved:

1. If I recall correctly, the actual cultural dividing line in the Low Countries during the Late Middle Ages was more East (continental, Meuse and Rhine valleys such as Gelre, Loon, Liège etc.) vs. West (close to the sea, Flanders, Brabant, Zeeland, Holland, Hainaut). Generally speaking, the west traded more via the sea, was richer, more urban and more populous in general and had more contact with France and England, whereas the east was more rural, less populous and more strongly integrated into the Holy Roman Empire. This divide became even more pronounced when the Burgundians married and conquered their way into the Low Countries, uniting the different counties and duchies into a single structure, which turned Flanders, Brabant and Holland into their main power base.

The North-South divide only became a stronger dividing line after the Eighty Years War and the split between a Habsburg Catholic South and an independent Protestant North.

Personally, I'd either split it into the four main cultures (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic and Limburgic) as you mentioned, or merge it into one big 'Dutch' culture. The intermediate option is ahistorical as it portrays a post 80 YW divide which didn't really exist before and it also comes with the additional issues that you're implying that Brabant and Limburg considered themselves Flemish in the 14th century (they most surely didn't) and that Flemish is separate from Dutch.

2. The locations of Saint-Omer (Sint-Omaars), Calais (Kales) and Boulogne (Bonen) should be culturally split between Flemish and Picard. The (slow) Romanization of this area was in full swing in the 14th century, but there was still a strong Flemish presence, especially in the villages.

3. Hainaut seems a bit sparse when it comes to locations. It had a total population that was only slightly smaller than Holland in the 14th-15th century. I'd split off Ath from Mons and Maubeuge from Valenciennes. Both Ath and Maubeuge were decently sized towns at that time, with political importance.

4. As others have already mentioned, the mix between Dutch (Antwerpen, Den Haag) and English (Ghent, Brussels) toponyms is quite messy. Also it's 'Kempenland' without the 't'.

5. Wallonia seems to barely have any iron, with Luxembourg (location) as the exception, whereas historically the Prince-Bishopric of Liège has always been an important iron producer and later became known for its steelworking and arms industry. It's not by chance that the industrial revolution first took off in this region when it spread to the European continent.

6. While it's a pleasant surprise to see wine production in the southern Low Countries, how will the game deal with the Little Ice Age and it's effects on crops. Viticulture, for example, became unprofitable in this region with the onset of the Little Ice Age and could no longer compete with French wine regions.

7. As others have said, from a historical perspective, Bruges makes more sense as a trade centre than Antwerp in the 14th century. With the gradual silting of the Zwin channel linking Bruges to the sea, in the 14th and 15th century, the trade centre should start to shift to Antwerp.


Also, I wondered if there would be a way for Flanders to regain the cities that it lost to the French king after the Flemish revolt without necessarily going to war? Historically, Romance Flanders was given back to the Flemish count as a 'wedding gift' when his daughter married the duke of Burgundy.
What an Amazing map, it looks so nice the details and the nice borders. Amazing! This really brings the Dutchman inside of me above. Cannot be more excited to play Friesland and conquer the entire Netherlands, since we all know the Frisians are the orginal Dutchman.

I do have some recommendations on the current dutch provinces, with some Historical background to back it up (Wikipedia links, real research).
Perhaps some are created due to balancing of the map.

1. Province of Groningen.
City of Groningen basically controlled the province, everything outside the city is called Ommelanden (I myself am from this region). These Ommelanden were divided in 4 regions. 1. Westerkwartier, 2. Hunsingo, 3. Fivelingo, 4. Oldambt (which came in the 15th century).

On the map, I see that the city of Groningen together with Westerkwartier and Hunsingo form "Groningen".
Fivelingo and 1/2 of Oldambt form Appingedam.
Before the city of Groningen got this power status over the entire province, it had some cities wars with Appingedam, which it won.

Wedde is it own region (official name for this region is "Westerwolde"), which makes sense. Before Westerwolde became officially Dutch it had close ties with the Bishop Münster and was regarded more Saxon cultured than Frisian cultured, the region itself spoke a Saxon dialect until the 16th. The name of the region implies that is on the West side of the Bishop Münster, while from Groningen its perspective it East.
This region came into Dutch hands in 1530 due to the duke of Gelre who concequered it and was later on conquered by Karel the V.

Changes I would propose for this province are for the start date 1337:
1. Make the Culture of wedde Saxon (perhaps with Frisian influence).
2. Make Wedde landlocked, and give Appingedam the entire coastal region on the east.

2. Province of Drenthe (top 3 regions in Oversticht).
1. Coevorden
and Emmen are direct neighbours (city centers are 20 km apart). For historical reasons I would like to rename Emmen to Coevorden since the growth of Emmen started in the 20th century, whilst Coevorden was a fully fortified city back then.
2. Instead of Coevorden I would suggest Meppel, which has been the biggest place in South-West of Drenthe.

3. Province of Friesland.
Rename Makkum to Sneek, since that is an official Frisian city in that specific region, and Makkum isnt.

4. Province of Gelre.
This province was divided in four "Kwartieren" (in english Quarters). These were 1. Arnhem, 2. Zutphen, 3. Nijmegen en 4 Roermond. If you ever visit Arnhem, the old city hall reference the names on a plaque.
The two that trigger me here are: 1. The location of Arnhem which border Utrecht, while in real life it borders Kleef. 2. The place names Apeldoorn and Doetichem in general since both grew in the 19th century.

Changes I would like to see here are:
1. Doetichem and Zutphen becoming 1, since this entire region belonged to the "kwartier of Zutphen". West part of Doetichem going to Arnhem.
2. Combine Apeldoorn and the West part of Doetichem and call it Arnhem. This region was called the "kwartier of Veluwe (Arnhem). Basically giving Arnhem control over the entire Veluwe Forest. Perhaps also adjust the grassland into Woodland there.
3. Rename Arnhem to Wageningen. Arnhem doesnt border Utrecht.

4. Province of Utrecht:
Why no Amersfoort, which is in CK3?

5. Province of Noord-Holland
Why no Haarlem, which is in CK3? Haarlem in the middle ages was bigger and more important than the city of Amsterdam, since the 80 years war the city of Amsterdam grew bigger than Haarlem.

6. Province of Dutch-Limburg
Rename Weert to Roermond, since this is bigger city and this city borders Belgium and not Germany.
Rename Roermond to Heinsberg (it clearly visible that Roermond is in the current German lands.

6. Bad-Bentheim?

View attachment 1130991
Great feedback from you both, thanks!
 
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Rather impressed with the accuracy of the map.

If you need help with finding relatively accurate sources of dutch coastlines at this time, I'd suggest this map as the primary basis for an early coastline, which is not that huge a departure from what is currently represented. Between 1350 and 1800 are the most changes due to flooding in this period, which would make the haarlemmermeer grow massively until the dutch poldered it in later in the 19th century.

Another choice could be a minimalist approach, which would most likely end up with at a map around the year 1600, where the low countries in area would be the smallest thanks to flooding, bad dyke maintanence and 80 years war. After this the republic would start recovering all the lakes and would grow in size again.
View attachment 1130969

Onto some immediate things that should be looked into
View attachment 1130984

I have numbered them:

1, 2, 3, 4 - Friesland (West Friesland is a contentious name as it can also rever to the location of Hoorn, which is West Friesland in Dutch. Meanwhile the province of Friesland in the Netherlands today was in medieval times known as Middle Friesland)
1. Harlingen is a good location, it's a somewhat important naval base of the states of friesland in the 17th century when it took that title from Dokkum. This is part of the historical region of Westergo. Franeker is a second option, it would be given a University but Harlingen is fine.
2. Dokkum and Leeuwarden are problematic as both are part of the historical region of Oostergo. Leeuwarden is the more important city here. Dokkum is important but there are many cities to represent and some have to be sacrificed. I have highlighted where Leeuwarden is on the map with the black line to the Red Dot.
3. Makkum is a bad choice for this province. This province is part of the Westergo region and would be better served with 2 far more important cities, a coastal trading city which is in decline by this period, Stavoren or Sneek, an up and coming city which is the 4th largest settlement of Friesland in modern times. Makkum however should not be picked. It is not part of the 11 Cities that were given city rights and while somewhat sizable throughout, it is far overshadowed in importance by Stavoren or Sneek.
4. This location should be rethought. It is part of the historical region known as Zevenwouden. The only city of the 11 cities that was here was Sloten. A very marginal settlement today and one that failed to properly develop. However other two good options are Heerenveen and Drachten. These are the Second and Third Largest Settlements in modern Friesland and would grow to become these important settlements during most of this period. Overshadowing places like Sloten.

5, 6, 7, 8 - This covers Groningen and Drenthe, in modern times two sparsely populated provinces of the Netherlands.
5, an option should be kept here for a location of Winsum. While not strictly necessary, it would be better to have Groningen have more locations and Drenthe fewer. Winsum was part of the Frisian Freedom and the largest settlement in the region of Hunsingo. Appingedam would then function as the location for Fivelgo and Wedde can be Oldambt. The three historical regions of the Ommelanden.
6. Groningen is a tough location. While modern day in the province of Groningen. Historically it belonged De Jure to the Oversticht and to the Bishop of Utrecht. The city however acted in defiance of the bishop and operated as an effective Free City. It would be great if it could be it's own independant location and entity in the game.
7. Assen and Emmen are both okay choices as locations. Assen is however the Capital of Drenthe and Drenthe should probably get one less location given it's historic poverty.
8. Coevorden is located much further east than is shown, I have highlighted where it should be.

9. Overijssel is in a good spot. However I would keep the historical regions more intact. Enschede is part of the region of Twente. And Twente has pretty well defined borders which could be used for it instead. It would shrink Deventer a little, but that can be compensated in the Zwolle Location a bit.

10. Somewhat of a shame to not have included Bentheim. A County which existed from c. 1050 till 1806. Lingen can move over a little. Having an extra location here wouldn't hurt given how massive Meppen is.

11, 12, 13 Gelre has historically been seperated into 4 quarters. These being Veluwe or Arnhem Quarter, the Nijmegen Quarter, Opper-Gelre and the County of Zutphen.
11. Apeldoorn can be cut, it's better if each quarter of Gelre has two Locations. Harderwijk has priority here as it would gain a University and was a Hanseatic City. Arnhem is the modern day capital of Gelderland and it's a major city in the Netherlands. Arnhem location also isn't including Arnhem the city. I have added a line here.
12. Splitting Zutphen and Doetinchem north to south like this is a bit cleaner. It allows for Doetinchem to also act as the minor baronies (or heerlijkheden) of Bergh, Wisch, Bredevoort and Borculo
13. Adding in Tiel in the western part of the Betuwe or Nijmegen Quarter would be a good choice as it was still contested between Brabant and Gelre at this time. I believe even that Tiel was part of Brabant at the startdate.

14. This is one of the regions that would be sea until the 20th century. It's called the Wieringermeerpolder or Wieringermeer at this time. Named for the tiny island that is to the northeast of this.
15. The Alkmaar location essentially covers the historical region of Kennemerland and Waterland. Given that Haarlem is the capital of North Holland. It would probably be better to make this location into Haarlem instead of Alkmaar. Although both are decent options.

16. Gouda isn't in the Gouda Location
17. Rotterdam is blocking off Dordrecht from the coast and is taking room from Dordrecht
18. Dordrecht isn't in the Dordrecht Location, I have highlighted where it ought to be.

Forgot to give it a number, but giving the province of utrecht one more location is probably smart. It's a far more wealthy and densely populated region of the Netherlands than Zeeland or Drenthe which were given 2. Amersfoort in the East is a good choice.

- Minor Addendum
View attachment 1131005
There is much less Grasslands in the Eastern Low Countries than is shown. During most of this period it would probably be seen as wooded and with the dark green forest area covering the Veluwe forest.
Also great feedback, thanks!
 
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General question to devs: can location names change in time? I don't mean names changing based on who owns the location, but something like a historical settlement that's relevant early in the timeline being replaced by a different one in the area that becomes more important later on.
Not organically.
 
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I really like all maps and all, but I'm worried about one thing. We can clearly see states that have only one 'location'. Something simmilar is taking place in Vic3 with states like Anhalt or Mecklemburg-Strelitz. But after you conquer 2 locations of the same province in Victoria they merge permanently - other party cant conquer only this one specific location. So here is my question: Are you able to acquire 'locations' through peace deals or the smallest you can go is provinces?
The system is different to V3.
 
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That's fine, I just wanted to know if, to give an example, the location where St. Petersburg should be will be named something different before 1703 and St. Petersburg afterwards. (I don't know if the timeline goes that far, I'm just talking about similar situations to this.)
That may be possible happen, but through an event.
 
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Glory to you Pavía, for your work in the evening of Friday. But please be aware: if Tinto Maps are to be released in every Friday, you may have to say goodbye to the sweet Friday night for some months. XD
Well, I don't have much to do this Friday evening, and it's fun to read and answer on a discussión about maps. But I might take a good deserved rest on the weekend, and come back to continue reading feedback on Monday, aye.
 
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I really like all maps and all, but I'm worried about one thing. We can clearly see states that have only one 'location'. Something simmilar is taking place in Vic3 with states like Anhalt or Mecklemburg-Strelitz. But after you conquer 2 locations of the same province in Victoria they merge permanently - other party cant conquer only this one specific location. So here is my question: Are you able to acquire 'locations' through peace deals or the smallest you can go is provinces?

yes of course you can acquire single locations
 
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Suppose you are Hesse, any way to prevent Hesse acquiring single locations in a snake line to reach the ocean? The geopolitics themselves should make such a thing improbable but not impossible. Since EU4 has a smaller map scale, you probably only need 4-6 provinces to make it to the ocean. Here you probably need closer to 15+ locations.

Its just inefficient to control
 
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Hopefully this is a question that isn't [REDACTED] to answer at this point, but how big is the entire world map on a pixel scale? For example, the EUIV map is 5632 x 1048 and the province map for the Netherlands looks like this:

Base data is 16384x8192
 
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Hi folks! Just before I continue answering comments, I wanted you to know:

1. We've already been taking notes on most of the feedback, and sometimes I'll just add a Helpful reaction.
2. For Each Tinto Maps we'll be creating a couple of Jira tickets, so we will make sure that your feedback is properly implemented:

Pavía created issue - Tinto Maps Map Feedback: #1 Low Countries
Pavía created issue - Tinto Maps Setup Feedback: #1 Low Countries
 
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The low countries map looks great!

However I do have some suggestions on tags and provinces I'd like to see added:
1. County of Zutphen
The county of Zutphen is a personal union of Gueldres in the eastern provinces of Zutphen and Doetinchem. It is in a similar situation to Zeeland at the startdate with the only major differences being that Zutphen is twice as big in provinces and Zeeland is included in this map whilst Zutphen isn't.
2. Groningen
As early as 1227 there was a conflict between Utrecht and Groningen on the topic of who controlled Groningen. The result of this debacle differed wildly from time to time, with Utrecht occasionally reconquering the city and Groningen regaining independence afterwards. Anyways, in neither cases it is a part of Frisia, as seen in this map. I'd argue a better way to represent them would be to cut the access of the province of Groningen to the sea and to add a Groningen tag, either as vassal of, independent or directly owned by Utrecht.
3. Lordship of Mechelen
Like Groningen, Mechelen was a small citystate located in its namesake province. Also like Groningen, it is in a confusing state of whether it is Flemish or independent. See in 1333 Liege gave the city to the county of Flanders, but the Flemish did not manage to fully assert their control there. In either case, in the screenshots it is owned by Brabant, which it shouldnt be.

Those were my few nitpicks with the map, either way, it looks great currently! Cannot wait to see more of the globe.
The County of Zutphen has already been made a Personal Union of Gelre. We'll take a look on what's possible to do with the other issues that you mention.
 
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Just some Feedback that might of course get buried: Both Düren and Hunsrück are misspelled in here, being written with a mere "u" instead of the german "ü". I'm not sure if this is intentional or not (keeping with english spelling), but since you already have Königssondergau with an "ö" I assume it might be an oversight.
Misspelling (as the English Wikipedia version looks to be with "ü"). Funnily enough, made by a fellow German (probably an overcorrection). Not only not buried, but already fixed.
 
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Alright, here are my suggestions for the trade goods. I ended up filling the entire map, I obviously don't expect everything to be copied like that, but once I started suggesting some goods, then that necessarily meant some other goods had to move around.
When it comes to things like crops, I don't think you'll find many good sources for exactly how they were distributed anyway so it's pretty arbitrary.

I made a map with all the suggestions:
8fCqvg1.png


And here the details:

Gold, Silver, Tin, Lead, Copper, Saltpeter:

Not much in this area, just one location I would suggest.

Limbourg: Lead. There is a town called Bleyberg/Blieberg/So-on-Mont-d'-Plomb (meaning lead mountain) in the area, modern name Plombières. While lead wasn't mined at the start of the game, mining was done throughout most of the games timespan. Since the Low Countries don't have a lot of mines other than coal and iron, I think it's the better good than just another lumber location.


Iron and Coal:

We are dealing with the most important iron ore location in Europe here, although it wasn't hugely important yet in the game's time period. The Minette deposits' insane richness only really became relevant during industrialization, when large amounts of ore were needed for industrial steel production, but I think it's a waste not to give all the minette locations iron. They are famous for it and iron was produced in the area since Roman times. Belgium even exhausted its share of them by the mid 19th century.

For reference, I have roughly drawn the location of the Minette deposit on the map, sourced from a 1921 report on iron ore reserves in Europe.
txxjeB3.png

Thionville, Luxembourg, Arlon, Longeville(?) and Wallerfangen: My suggestion is iron for all of them. Thionville's coal should go to Saarbrücken instead. Wallerfangen could have coal as well, but I think iron was more important.

The region along the Meuse (so locations Mons, Wavre, Namur, Liège, Walcourt, Dinant and whatever that small font long name location next to it is) were one of the most industrialized regions in the world at the end of the game's timeframe, highly industrialized already around 1800. So there definitely should be some potential there.

Namur is shown to have marble production, but I think it should be iron. It became famous for its method of iron smelting, which was called the Walloon method and spread as far as Sweden. Unless there is some specific reason for marble production there? Iron could be in Liège as well, but I don't think it needs to be that concentrated and alum seems fine for industrial production.

Mons is the location of the borinage coal field. Very rich, but how does the game model coal only being used as an alternative to firewood (which became quite expensive in some regions) for most of the time period? Until the puddling process and steam engines, there really isn't a special use for coal and those only happen in the 18th century.
I think Mons, Wavre, Douai and Lens would be coal locations, but only later in the game. I don't believe coal here mattered before the inventions mentioned above.
Coal should also be present in Maastricht and Lommel later on. See this map for coal locations in the Low Countries.
BTW, Arras is shown to have coal, but I don't know why. The coal is clearly further north.

We could really use some clarification on if coal is supposed to exist from the start or be added later in the game. If the latter, then there would only be few locations with coal at the start, maybe some in England, Saarland and the Ruhr area, were it was actually used as a replacement for firewood.


Alum and Mercury:

Pretty hard to find any sources for production of alum or similar materials, as they aren't as important as stuff like iron.
Alum in Liège as a mining center of the period is fine, I think, especially since Flanders needs it. Most of the alum supply of the period was imported, though.
Doesn't look like there was any significant mercury production in the area.
Edit: After some more research on alum, it being produced in Liège is absolutely correct! It was only established 250 years into the game, but it was pretty important. I want to add that coal production actually was very important in Liège at the start of the game.


Pearls, Medicine, Amber:

Honestly I wouldn't really know what medicaments represents or why pearls are in the Low Countries. While I believe some amber can be found at the North Sea, it wasn't significant.


Clay and Sand:

It looks like the Netherlands do have some good clay resources, even after all the polder business, so they probably should have at least one location with clay. There are also old clay mines in Belgium around Kortrijk which gives its name to a geological formation that mainly consists of clay.
I suggest Kortrijk, s'-Hertogenbosch and Cuijk for clay.
There is actually a 'desert' with sandy dunes south of s'-Hertogenbosch which was caused by excessive peat and clay extraction from the marshland in the area, so it's good that this location doesn't have farmlands vegetation. Peat mining was even outlawed in some areas, as it became too dangerous.

This begs the question: how will draining the marshland be represented in the game? You could start some of those marsh locations out with clay deposits, but if they are made into flatland, they could get rye and vegetables as resource.

North Brabant is generally very sandy in terms of geology, so maybe this is somewhere where sand production could happen?
Sand was widely available anyway, and the limiting factor for glass production was fuel, which is why glass was often made close to a forest. So sand is kind of a filler good.
I suggest sand for Breda, Dunkirk, Dordrecht and Makkum.


Salt:

Zeeland, famous for its salt production for a long time, so Middelburg having it is correct. Zeeuws-Vlaanderen, so Hulst also produced salt. I don't think there should be too much salt production around, though, because Dutch traders actually sailed to Portugal to get salt from the famous Setubal deposit and sold it in Northern Europe. Maybe one more in Dokkum, and that's it?


Marble and Stone:

I couldn't find any evidence for marble or alabaster in the Low Countries. I found a German article talking about a sculpture made from alabaster in the Low Countries, but the material was found to have been imported from Franconia through the Rhine and Main.
There is the Carrières du Hainaut quarry, which produces a certain type of limestone, but does that count as being special enough? If so, then Mons should have marble, if not then stone.

Stone looks like another filler good mostly for hilly/mountainous locations. Not really a strength of the aptly named Low Countries.
Other than the Mons location mentioned above, I suggest stone for Oudenaarde and the unreadable location north of Bastogne.


Dyes:

Madder was mentioned in this thread before. Definitely a dye that was extensively grown in the Low Countries. Zeeland should probably have salt, though, so I suggest dyes for Rotterdam, Den Haag and Ghent.


Wine:

In my opinion, there shouldn't be wine here, as we're coming out of the warm period at the start of the game and making wine wasn't really viable for most of the game's timeframe in this region.


Fiber Crops and Wool:

I saw some people suggesting that there shouldn't be much wool production here, because they imported English wool. But there was still some domestic wool production, of course, and a lot of flax production as well. This production center for cloth just had THAT much demand.
For wool I would suggest Thouin, Walcourt, Maastricht and Weert.
For flax (fiber crops) production I'd suggest Sint Niklaas, Harderwijk, Doetinchem, Zuthpen and Enschede.


Rye (Sturdy Grains) and Wheat:

I know from international statistics published around 1900 that wheat production in the Netherlands was 22% of rye production, while for Belgium it was 61%, but I have no idea how accurately this translates to this game's time period. It does suggest to me that rye should be the predominant crop in this region.

So, for wheat I would suggest Cassel, Ypres, Lille, Tournai, Douai, Valenciennes, Wavre, Verne, Brussels, Nijmegen and Arnhem.
For sturdy grains I would suggest Utrecht, Apeldoorn, Deventer, Zwolle, Ostende, Leuven, Mechelen, Turnhout, Lommel, Maasmechelen, Hasselt and Eindhoven.


Horses

Now that's a filler good if I've ever seen one. You can have those anywhere where you have livestock, but I'd assume horses 'production' to be more common around population centers.
For horses I suggest Antwerpen and Helmond

Lumber

Definitely something for the Ardennes. Not all that much lumber in the rest of the Low Countries.
I suggest Venlo, Bouillon, Bastogne, St. Vith and Stavelot.


Wild Game

Also something for the forested Ardennes, but not much.
I suggest to keep it in Neufchateau and replace the fur in Wiltz


Fish

Mostly makes sense as a good for cities, in my opinion, since that's where the fishermen and their guilds would be,
So I suggest Bruges, Leiden, Amsterdam, Alkmaar, Hoorn, Harlingen, Groningen and Appingedam.


Livestock

Should obviously be mostly in location that aren't that great for crops, but there is always going to be a certain mix.
I suggest Dinant, Gouda, Assen, Emmen, and Wedde.


Legumes

An alternative farming good, I don't think there are going to be any historical sources showing a significant differentiation between growing legumes and other crops, so again it's pretty arbitrary.
I suggest Leeuwerden, Aalst and Coevorden.
Very detailed feedback, we'll definitely take into account, thanks!
 
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Hi folks! Just wanted to let you know that our CD Team has gone over all the feedback on this thread and that as I mentioned in today's Tinto Maps, over 70 action points were implemented thanks to your feedback. Thanks, and cheers!
 
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