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Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
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Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

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While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
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We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
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It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
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There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
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Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
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Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
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The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
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It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
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Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
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Not many people live up in the north..
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I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.



Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…
 
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If so, then I do agree with you on the numbers, but I don't see how you would be able to do that math since you can't see the exact breakdown of the populations. I definitely agree that area corresponding to modern day Finland should be 30-40% Swedish.
I showed my calculations in another post here. But in any case, the 30-40% number is completely absurd. If it were accurate, the Finnish language would hardly even exist today. Swedish rule and settlement in Finland at this point was still very young and would only intensify in the centuries following the start of the game! Please explain how the Swedish population could go from 30-40% in 1337 to 17.5% in 1610 under these conditions.
I challenge you to find a historian of Medieval Finland who would agree with that estimation. My medieval Finnish history major friend certainly finds the figures (and the geographical distribution) absurd.
 
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A few notes on the location names in Denmark/Schleswig:

Ringkøbing was spelt "Ringkjøbing" until very recently (I can't find an exact date, but there are sources from the 1940s where it's still written with a j)

Flensburg has its German name, while Slesvig is in Danish. So for consistency it should either be Flensborg and Slesvig or Flensburg and Schleswig.
I think they should just stick with modern city spellings. City name spellings were not at all consistant in the timeperiod of the game. But yeah, they should at least be consistant in wether they use Danish, Swedish, German, or English spellings.
 
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the Sondeled location in the east of the Agder province in Norway should probably be readjusted a bit to take into account the division betweeen east and western norway which has been stable since the division of Borgarting and Gulagsting. The location atm barely includes sondeled also so I would also suggest changing its name to "Vestmar" which is the name of the area in general and has been since the viking age, or the name of the town there founded in 1666 (which inside the game timeframe) "Kragerø"
 
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Few comments on Finnish geography:

1. Lakes
There should be more lakes in the area of present day Finland, for example Näsijärvi and Kallavesi. Here is a list of hundred biggest lakes in Finland today, so you could just include the ones above whatever minimum size requirement you have. (In that case do note that Lokka and Porttipahta are artificial lakes not present in Project Caesar's time and starred ones are extensions to Saimaa.)
1721458169675.png

2. Swamps
There should probably be quite a lot of swamps / marshes in Finland, but sadly I don't really know in where exactly. In any case do note that very significant portion of areas that used to be swamps in 14th century have since been drained, especially after industrialisation, so modern day swamp distribution maps won't give accurate information about the extents of swamp areas in Project Caesar's time.

3. Åland archipelago
There should be lot of islands in the Åland archipelago. Not as their own locations, of course, but just drawn on the map as parts of currently existing locations. Reference images in spoiler below:
Satellite:
1721458835897.png

Map:
1721458878116.png
Also, based on geography Åland (or Kastelholm location) should be part of Egenliga Finland province, not Uppland. Based on map here (Finnish "socken" in 1635) Åland was part of "Turun ja Porin lääni" in 17th century.

4. That huge wasteland in Karelia
If you really, really need it from gameplay perspective, I suppose it is ok, but otherwise that area wasn't really any more or less inhospitable to living or travel than the non-wasteland locations near it (or Lappland, for example). It was just forest and some small hills (which you'd classify still as flatland) and the thing potentially making it "impassable" was just an utter lack of infrastructure. If some monarch would have wanted to develop that area, it would have been possible (albeit definitely costly). Same if population of Finland would have dramatically grown for some reason and the somewhat-easier-to-farm areas would have become packed enough to encourage people to migrate and chop those Karelian forests into fields.
 
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With the current population setup, Finland is 30-40% Swedish, I did the math. The earliest concrete numbers for Swedish Speakers in Finland (I know of) are from 1610, three whole centuries of Swedish rule after the start date, when 17.5% of Finland spoke Swedish. The current culture breakdown is completely unjustifiable, especially when considering that Swedish settlement and rule would only further spread after 1337.

It will be tweaked..
 
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An approximate suggestion for change, Rättvik being optional with the dashed line:

I'll add Rättvik as a location when Hell Freezes over.

My mothers family is from Leksand, and our ancestor was the first protestant preacher in the Church there.
 
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On the note of copper and other metals.
The location of "Kopparberget" has copper, but unlike Falun, this copper was not yet discovered in 1337. It was discovered in 1624. I hope a Swedish source is ok.

Kongsberg did likewise not start large scale production until 1623. But was known by at least as early as 1400. Source in Norwegian.

If RGOs is going to be placed anachronistically then realistically there is a case to be made that Sala should have its RGO be silver. As mining activity started already in 1400s and had its peak during the early 1500s. Once again a Swedish source.

There is a DHE for Sala silver mine :)

Kongsberg, well.. it need a similar treatment.
 
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Which I think is a list of points that you'd agree to as well. There is also that having few, large provinces would concentrate population and make infrastructure building easier, while having more that is spread out does the opposite. Whether it is more boring who knows, but I'd say those challenges more accurately reflect the challenge for the country at least. Several parts of road network in this area was built within the last 50 years, if there is two locations in an area with a decently concentrated population it instead becomes a nobrainer to do.

This would make this area be one of the densest in locations in Europe, but also very depopulated, and basically useless.
 
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That's probably what he meant...still half of the locations have 100/200 pops even if they grow rapidly dependig on what's the highest limit of how many pops you can convert per month, I can see half of the locations in Finland being Swedish by the year 1500

Why would you as a player waste your government doing that? And it still would take 150+ years.
 
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I feel like the hill/flatland decision should be reevaluated. Surely it should match how rugged the terrain actually is, not just be a matter of height.

Its how rugged it is, but peaks of 350 meters from 150meters a few km away is basically flatlands.
 
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Regarding flatlands and wetlands. Why I do think that most of Finland should be flatlands, given that most of it is extremely flat, I'm certain that the mires, peatlands, swamps there should be represented too.

Taiga forest such as those in Finland are notorious for often also being extremely wet and swampy. The reasons for this vary, but in the case of Finland, the extremely flat terrain and the shallow ground (the granite bedrock being very close to the surface) traps a lot of the water of the forests by preventing proper drainage, so it results in wetlands. I did see estimates that said up to 30% of Finland's area are types of wetland environments, however, I can't find any map or comprehensive detailed summary of where this 30% is, only either vague claims or some isolated examples of famous swamps or extremely detailed surveys of individual areas.

Does somebody have any resource on Finnish mires and other wetlands, and where they are spread?

EDIT: I guess wetland forests could absolutely be used to sort of "model" some of the characteristics of the Finnish lakeland, where navigation was traditionally very hard without either getting yourself wet or travelling by boat, too, if nothing else.

I agree.. when this map was originally made, we had terrain as a monolitic value, and it was only 1-2 years later we split terrain in vegetation and topography.
 
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So, checked out the geography of Finnmark fjord coast on what to change to make gameplay more interesting, very much taking inspiration from @rapido 's post.

Tinto map :
1721457094679.png



My map : yellow = location borders, red = impassable. sea zone borders in dark blue
1721459070423.png



1. Vardo. Almost same as in tinto western border pushed east
2. Deatnu. pushed east from tinto map to more accurately present this "lower Tana river" location
3. Lebesby (name ?) western half of the very-large tinto-location of Deatnu.
4. Porsanger extended to include the east side of the fjord.
5. Kjelvik being really north as the historic town, I think a configuration like this gives more interest, with it taking up all of the peninsula north of the east-west passage.
6. Hammerfest can become an island province including also Sørøya, Seiland and Stjernøya it's definitely large enough
7: Talvik a bit reshaped and losing the islands.

Those are connected inland through :
8. Kautokeino (impassable to Porsanger)
9. Karasjok (I cannot find that other village proposed by rapido :( ), impassable to Talvik and to Deatnu/Lebesby
10. Utsjoki. Looks like some really cool stuff could be done with its geography with it being kind of the combination of a river from Deatnu to Karasjok, another river/pass from Deatnu to Enari, and a pass from Karasjok to Enari, and also including a pass towards today's Kirkenes (though the latter might be more recent)
11. Varanger. I'm keeping it as a whole for the religious remark from rapido.



And yeah, I had too much fun, so an alternatively for the east side looking a bit more south. Haven't looked at Russia yet (probably won't). Mostly same numbering as above.

1721461489589.png

- 1 Vardo loses southern coastline
- 2 Deatnu unchanged, but a much more central location for control in this area
- 3 Lebesby (name?) unchanged
- 9 Karasjok unchanged (though it seems illogical to be connected to Enare and probably at most a corridor along the current border to Nunnanen also)
- 11 Varanger moved north, so it also corresponds better to its fjord
- 14 Kirkenes (name?) taking the eastern bit of Varanger, including the corridor-connection to Kaamanen (doesn't seem like it should be actually inhabited)
- 15 Kaamanen (name?) as the southern half of proposed Utsjoki location, so the geography can be represented more accurately. I'm really wondering whether the connection with Karasjok should't be a corridor as well...

South of that comes Enare, of course
 
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Its how rugged it is, but peaks of 350 meters from 150meters a few km away is basically flatlands.
It really depends on the inclines of the slopes. For example a 200m tall but steep rocky outcrop is better for building a defensive fortress than a 500m hill that's surrounded by a 5 degree incline for 10 kilometers in each direction
 
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Why would you as a player waste your government doing that? And it still would take 150+ years.
@Johan have you ever wandered why to this day there are more Sámi in Norway than Sweden and Finland combined? Let's just say...I want to reenact that:) ...still it's good to know that you guys know about it!
 
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