Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[matfer13]

I'm interpreting his reply to include a silent "you can do only one at a time". With at least 50, probably more like 100 locations, most of which at least somewhat more populated

That's probably what he meant...still half of the locations have 100/200 pops even if they grow rapidly dependig on what's the highest limit of how many pops you can convert per month, I can see half of the locations in Finland being Swedish by the year 1500

 

[AHumpierRogue]

I feel like the hill/flatland decision should be reevaluated. Surely it should match how rugged the terrain actually is, not just be a matter of height.

 

[ArVass]

I feel like the hill/flatland decision should be reevaluated. Surely it should match how rugged the terrain actually is, not just be a matter of height.

Also should take other factors into consideration, like for example if the settlement the location represents is actually built on steep hills or surrounded by them

 

[honkajoki]

There has been a lot of feedback on Finland already, but I would just like to add my two cents.

First, shouldn't the location to the east of Lieksa be called Möhkö? At least that's what the village on the eastern extremity of Finland is called these days. All 30 google results that I found on Mökhö were either foreign outlets obviously misspelling the Finnish village, or references to some word in Mongolian.

Second, it has been pointed out that Siikalatva is misspelt on the map. But I would question whether the name is adequate in the first place, as I struggle to find any particularly old references to the name. Pulkkila would perhaps a better choice then?

Mökhö is a misspelling, but I don't think it should be called Möhkö either, as it seems the village grew around a 19th century iron mill. In the Russia map thread, of which Karelia was part, I suggested naming the location Ilomantsi or Pogosta. Another user was less blind when looking at the map and noticed there's already Ilomantsi, which then should also be renamed.

 

[Gurito43]

The name of the "Birndal" location (southernmost location in Nordland) is incorrect, it should be Torgar

 

[ArVass]

Regarding flatlands and wetlands. Why I do think that most of Finland should be flatlands, given that most of it is extremely flat, I'm certain that the mires, peatlands, swamps there should be represented too.

Taiga forest such as those in Finland are notorious for often also being extremely wet and swampy. The reasons for this vary, but in the case of Finland, the extremely flat terrain and the shallow ground (the granite bedrock being very close to the surface) traps a lot of the water of the forests by preventing proper drainage, so it results in wetlands. I did see estimates that said up to 30% of Finland's area are types of wetland environments, however, I can't find any map or comprehensive detailed summary of where this 30% is, only either vague claims or some isolated examples of famous swamps or extremely detailed surveys of individual areas.

Does somebody have any resource on Finnish mires and other wetlands, and where they are spread?

EDIT: I guess wetland forests could absolutely be used to sort of "model" some of the characteristics of the Finnish lakeland, where navigation was traditionally very hard without either getting yourself wet or travelling by boat, too, if nothing else.

 

[Sollisss]

The location of Halden should be forest and not woods and should produce lumber as it was basically founded on the lumber export.
Granted this didn't really happen until the 1500 hundreds and there really isn't much info about it before then.

I would also argue that a lot of the locations down here should also be hills, and the rule you made about terrain doesn't really make sense.

Either way i'm just being overly critical about my home area, it's really neither here nor there it would be such a minor change anyways

 

[BurnBird]

With the current population setup, Finland is 30-40% Swedish, I did the math. The earliest concrete numbers for Swedish Speakers in Finland (I know of) are from 1610, three whole centuries of Swedish rule after the start date, when 17.5% of Finland spoke Swedish. The current culture breakdown is completely unjustifiable, especially when considering that Swedish settlement and rule would only further spread after 1337.

If so, then I do agree with you on the numbers, but I don't see how you would be able to do that math since you can't see the exact breakdown of the populations. I definitely agree that area corresponding to modern day Finland should be 30-40% Swedish.

 

[Trefoldigheden]

Location "Nakskov" is not one whole island, but two larger islands of Lolland and Falster.

I would not spilt it into two locations since "Falster" was very sparsely populated, just add some sea.
https://denstoredanske.lex.dk/Nykøbing_Falster

 

[Mahatma Gandhi]

You cannot have a map of Norway without Mjøsa; if England gets its biggest lake, shouldn't Norway at least get its own when it's over 10x the size? There is a severe lack of lakes in both Norway, Sweden, and Finland, and it would be a shame if it weren't remedied.

For Norway in general, I feel like it would be nice to represent the landscape in the east as what it actually is: fertile valleys. Seeing how the alps, Italy, and south caucasus have been portrayed, I don't see why Norway shouldn't get a similar treatment other than "It's not important enough."

For example, if we look at the area between Otta and Alvdal, two locations that you will easily be able to march ten thousand men between in the current state of the game, we see mountains. There's a valley cutting through it where people live, sure. But I've been to Rondane before, and I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for organizing that march!
By the way, the location "Imsdalen," seems to refer to a very small valley in the south of this image, barely visible. Almost nothing pops up when I search it, and I hadn't heard of it before today. Should it exist?

Rough sketch of how a better representation *might* look like:

Again, it is EXTREMELY rough, but I firmly believe Norway needs more spiky stuff. Purple is obviously wasteland, yellow is currently wasteland in the game, but I don't think it deserves that label. Plus, adding in more elongated and sharp locations + wastelands will really sell the "valleys" effect. The bright desaturated red could either be added to an existing location or be turned into an uninhabitable "pass"-type location to represent the route that goes across Sognefjell, which has been used for a *very* long time.

Sognefjellet, SNL

 

[NJay]

A few notes on the location names in Denmark/Schleswig:

Ringkøbing was spelt "Ringkjøbing" until very recently (I can't find an exact date, but there are sources from the 1940s where it's still written with a j)

Flensburg has its German name, while Slesvig is in Danish. So for consistency it should either be Flensborg and Slesvig or Flensburg and Schleswig.

 

[TheDwarvenGuy2]

Some of the land in the decentralized area seems to be Swedish culture. Are those colonists?

 

[Demetrios]

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
View attachment 1165159
Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

I'm very curious how Denmark will be portrayed at the game's start. For those who don't know, the previous king of Denmark basically mortgaged the entire country bit by bit, so by this point it was owned by various creditors. The mortgage to Skane, as you can see, was held by Sweden, while Denmark proper was mortgaged to various creditors, most notably the Duke of Holstein. It's going to be interesting to see how the game portrays the mortgages being paid off and the country re-formed by the king-to-be...

 

[Ipponen]

Super interesting stuff!

I thought I could provide some feedback since I my dayjob is to write papers about the northernmost fenno-scandia during the early modern period. I am most familiar with the 16-hundreds, so keep that in mind. I will start by commenting on the location names. I apologize in advance for the horrendous english found in this comment, I am truly sorry.

First a general comment on the coastal provinces. In most of Northern Norway, stuff where governed fjord-by fjord, which will probably look ugly here, however there is a meaningful difference between the outer islands and peninsulae and the inner fiords and inland areas. The outermost area has permanent Norwegian settlement from early on, whereas the inner areas see no norwegian presence before early 1600-.

Now I started writing something long and boring here, where I went in to detail on the current disputes in the litterature and so on, but for the sake of everyone I deleted this, and decided to draw some suggestion instead, with some short explanations.

View attachment 1165524

From left to right.
The wastland between Troms and Raunala was the most trafficated land-based trading route in the area at the time. Reineer caravans traveled from Tornio to Skibotn at the Norwegian coast. During summer it is a lot harder to cross, since you have to carry everything on your back. A lot of people did it, but rarly armies. I have traversed across that area both winter and summer by foot and it is fine. If this is wasteland then there is also wasteland between modern day Finland and Kautokeino/Karasjok/Deatnu/Varanger. (In terms of how hard it is to traverse by foot, carrying with you stuff). The tax collectors traveled through this area with reindeer sleds that they had confiscated. They could haul surprising amount of stuff.

Raisa - this looks like a saami variant of the area. The economic and administrative center in this location is further out at a fishing village located at Skjervøy. The area is refered to as "Skjervøy parish and court place" in a lot of the source material from the period.

Alta - Alta is the population center in the area today, but during the Period a village called "Talvik" was the earliest administrative center inside the fjord. In the thriteen hundreds, Sørvær or Loppa At the coast, might better reprecent actual centers. The area was often refered to as "Alten", but this does not refer to the outer islands in this location.

Hammerfest - This is also the modern center, but should include the northernmost parts of the islands Seiland and Sørøya, which is now included in Alta. the location should not include the north cape island.

Porsanger - In the period the Administrative center here was Kjelvik, which lies almost at the north cape. It should also include the eastern side of the fjord.

Deatnu - Tana in Norwegian, The name refers to the large river, this is a troublesome area as the inner river is administrated completly different from the coastal area in the period. The swedish crown is taxing the inland of this province, but not the coastal area (some periods). I would consider splitting these in an outer and inner part.

Vardø - The geographical area is refered to as the Varanger peninsula, but Vardø was the town with the "castle" and noblemen (1-3 for the most part) , so Vardø is not unreasonable.

Varanger - This is the southern Varanger fjord often called "sør-varanger". This area was taxed by both russian and norwegian authorithies. They became russian orthodox after the russian munks built the monastary here.

Kautokeino - I have written a Saami naming suggestion here.

Karasjok - I have written a saami and norwegian naming suggestion for what was the earlier trading place and how the location was referenced by swedish and norwegian authorithies in the 1600s. Karasjok became the center later during the 19th century.

I did not have time to attatch sources for this but, Lillienskiolds speculum boraele in "nordnorske samlinger" and "To jordebøker fra 1694" are good primary sources from the period, most of my claims is based in these. I do not have the letters sent from the lord in the province right now, and the archive which have them is closed for the summer so I am afraid I cannot go into more detail on the earlier period. There is also written one book on this in the sixtees, dealing with the administrative history of finnmark, but I have left it at my office so I am sure I don't remeber everything correct. There are also plenty of probate records as well as tax records from the period, giving good indications of population size and "culture", which I will have to comment on another day.

Really cool that you guys do these kind of development diaries, I enjoy them a lot. Thanks.

Best regards.

I'm also working on feedback regarding this region, but more from the Swedish perspective, who also laid claim in the area. I'm wondering how the Sámi siida and the Swedish Lappmark systems play into this.

When both Sweden and Norway collected tax from the siidas of Kautokeino and Aviovaara, Sweden administered them as part of Lappland, more specifically Torne Lappmark. I'm not sure however how Norway administered them. Were they part of a Finnmark county perhaps? What about Utsjok and Enare, which were also taxed by both powers? The current provinces seem to be based on modern borders established in the 1751 Strömstad Treaty, so they probably aren't accurate from the point of view of either country. Do you think it would be appropriate to move Kautokeino and Aviovaara to a Swedisj Lappland province or maybe the other way around move Utsjoki and Inari to a Norwegian Finnmark province?

 

[Huskermax5]

dominion

Many thanks

 

[luanmameili]

Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…

It seems Gernamy will be the last region to introduce in Europe

 

[A Landy]

The "ü" in "Lübeck" is missing its dots on the trade map!
They're kinda important!

Just upgrade Lubeck twice to get world port to get the dots back

 

[luanmameili]

Religions
View attachment 1165178

The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

These pagan beliefs uses names in CK2? (like Suomenusko and Romuvan) In CK3 they were renamed as Ukonusko and Vidilism

 

[otaman1]

Suomenusko is the modern term for the modern revival of Finnish paganism. You could instead use Suomalainen muinaisusko which just means ancient Finnish faith, or simply call the religion Finnic. Most of Baltic Finnic peoples shared a similar belief. Also, I don't think Saaremaa was fully Christian at this time. There were pockets of Oeselians who were still pagan and occasionally attacked German settlers, sometimes killing them all such as in 1261 and 1343.

I know at this time there weren't really any notable Uralic polities but it'd be nice to at least have them represented as tribal nations. I wouldn't want Finland to be free real estate for Paradox Sweden.

 

[Kairaix]

The term "Suomenusko" is too Finnish-centric and it is also taken over by fascists and ultranationalists. Consider using "Kansanusko" or "Ukkousko" instead.

Edit: It is also refers to "Suomi" which at the time only referred to modern-day Southwest Finland https://www.kotus.fi/kielitieto/nim...is-Suomi on yksi Suomen,Etelä- ja Pohja-Suomi.