Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

[Palando]

I definitely think it makes sense to split Carinthia, Carniola, and Styria from Austria - all three would later become Inner Austria under the Leopoldine branch, and Carniola and Carinthia in particular have only been ruled by a Habsburg for two years in 1337.

Also, are there ways for German dynasties to split their lands between sons while retaining their close ties? I'm thinking of the Habsburgs until Maximilian I, and the Wittelsbachs and Wettins basically always.

As PUs?

Austria was ruled by two brothers, Albert II and Otto IV, a similar situation to the Wittelsbachs who also split their dominions. Otto IV died two year later which prevented a more permanent division, but I would personally advocate for splitting Austria. As Otto IV mostly focused on Further Austria, Carinthia and Krain, he could get those parts, whereas Albert II would own Austria and Styria. Additional events (just like I hope Bavaria also gets them for their similar situation) could then lead to the unification. After all, Austria was split in 1379 for a longer time, too.

 

[Pbhuh]

We finally get to criticize Germany WOOOO

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
View attachment 1167612
I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zelland, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Locations:
View attachment 1167616

Spoiler: Detailed Locations Maps

View attachment 1167617
View attachment 1167618
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View attachment 1167620

Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
View attachment 1167621
Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
View attachment 1167622
Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
View attachment 1167623
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Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
View attachment 1167626
Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

First off starting in the North, as I mentioned last week in the Scandinavian Dev Diary there are issues in Schleswig and Holstein:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-maps-11-19th-of-july-2024-scandinavia.1695964/page-23#post-29781141

The Duchy of Berg is incorrectly given Bonn. Bonn was part of the archbishopric of Cologne. In general, Berg should not cross into the Left Bank of the Rhine, it never did historically. They only owned a small bit of Bonn which was located on the right bank of the Rhine.

Bonn on the right bank of the Rhine belonged – with the exception of Vilich and Schwarzrheindorf – the territory of the counts of Sayn, after 1246 the Lords of Blankenberg and von Löwenberg and was built in the 14th and respectively. 15. century part of the county or the Duchy of Berg. The last Sayner Graf, Henry III, founded a branch of the Teude's Order of the Teudic Knights soon after 1217 in Ramersdorf. In Vilich (around 978, the first abbess was the holy Adelheid, since 2008 also patron saint of the city of Bonn) and in Schwarzrheindorf with its highly important double church of St. Maria and Clemens (after 1156) were founded Benedictine monasteries, who were later converted into maromen's monasteries. Both belonged to the Electoral Cologne territory as so-called shelters.[1]

After the Battle of Worringen in 1288, Bonn became one of the privileges of the Elector of Cologne.

Finally, in 1597, Bonn, with an estimated 3,000 inhabitants, officially became the residence town of Kurköln, the secular territory of the Cologne archbishops, under Ferdinand of Bavaria, coadjutor of the archbishop of Cologne.[29] The favourable traffic situation on the Rhine, a differentiated industry, (remote) trade and the increasing residence function created the prerequisite for positive urban development.[1]

Original in german: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschichte_der_Stadt_Bonn#Kurkölnische_Residenz

Battle of Worringen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A choice could be made to make the city of Cologne already independant.

Some earlier maps I drew from the Low Countries Dev Diary

Reposting this since we got to the german map thread.

1. & 9 Munster has an overabundance of Locations. The Bishopric was historically divided into two parts. The Hochstift or Upper Bishopric and Niederstift Lower Bishopric.
Meppen and later Cloppenburg were part of this Niederstift.
9. Cloppenburg should be owned by Tecklenburg until 1400 or 1403, when it was acquired by Münster. Meppen was already part of the Bishopric since 1252.
I would replace Bersenbrück with Fürstenau, which seemed to have been an Post or Amt of the Bishopric of Osnabrück, which was formed around 1357. Bersenbrück doesn't become an administrative area until the Kingdom of Hannover in 1817.
With this in mind, perhaps one or two locations could be scrapped for Münster. Having Warenburg, Beckum, Coesfeld, Ahaus, Borken and Münster seems a bit much. Reducing Ahaus, Borken and Coesfeld to just 2 locations, Ahaus could probably stay as it had a streak of independence and wasn't seemingly acquired till 1406 and Coesfeld can cover borken as well and merging Warendorf and Beckum seems appropriate. Warendorf seems to have been the larger of the two.

8. Tecklenburg being split into Bentheim has been mentioned numerous times in this thread already. But just putting it here as well for recordkeeping.

2. Cleves is far too small. Having only 1 location is criminal. I would replace Rees with Wesel or Emmerich, two towns of far more importance and part of the county of Cleves. I would go for Wesel as it was already part of Cleves at this time, while Emmerich wasn't acquired till 1371 and Rees wasn't until 1392. Wesel also became part of the hanseatic league in ther 15th century. And was an entrepot.

3. & 7. Essen can be removed from the Rhine River. While every province needs a minimum size, Dortmund is rather large and can be cut into a little and with the removal of some of Münster's locations we can include an important town on the Rhine:
Duisburg, another location for Cleves.

Duisburg was an independant Imperial City until 1290 when it was given to Cleves. Then in 1314 given to Berg and returned in 1392. It became a hanseatic city as well.

4. Having Jülich seperated into enclaves is a bit weird when most of its territory was connected. Meanwhile Cologne isn't connected to Moers. Just giving the area connected to the rhine from Gladbach to Cologne or Moers would be better. Unless there is a need for Jülich to connect to the rhine.

A Location that could benefit Jülich would be the city and capital of Jülich. It's a bit weird only seeing other cities.

5. Roermond isn't there and messes up the Dutch-German border. Roermond is instead located in the region of the county of Horne. Perhaps this location could be split up to allow for Roermond to actually be in the Dutch borders.

6. I think it would be best if Berg remained on the right bank of the Rhine and Cologne on the Left part.
So making the city of Cologne's Leftbank also not exceed too far past it. Instead this can be given to the location of Siegburg and maybe Remscheid. Alternatively Deutz could be added here. Altough i wouldn't as it would again cause the issue of Cologne extending too far over to the leftbank.
Siegburg was owned by a local abbey. It makes sense to give it to Cologne, however it would become part of Berg in 1407.

7 (again, woops). Bonn on the Left bank of the Rhine belonged to Cologne. Only the Rightbank belonged to Berg. Given that most of the location is on the leftbank. Keep it with Cologne, as it would become the Seat of the Bishop later on.
Also. Cologne could already be given independence as it defacto already was since the battle of woeringen.

``end quote``

As drawn on the map, this whole area is a mess with random enclaves of regions that were more or less contiguous on most maps.
Similarly, Heinsberg is made huge in detriment of Jülich, while it was a very small state, and the Siegburg abbey area is given to cologne, which could be okay, but on some maps it's shown as belonging to Heinsberg. Not sure what that is about, maybe someone can explain that better. It may however be related to ambt blankenberg: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amt_Blankenberg
Heinsberg rulers:https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_heren_van_Heinsberg
Neuenahr which is essentially the same area as Ahrweiler is however missing, even though it is listed as a county. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafschaft_Neuenahr
As mentioned before, the lack of Duisburg, a relatively powerful town completely missing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Duisburg

Using the Reichskreis or Imperial Circles there is more information gathered about all the minor states that are often hard to see on maps and also how long they lasted for and thus rightfully ignored:

Upper Rhenish Circle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lower Rhenish–Westphalian Circle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Electoral Rhenish Circle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And please get rid of all the gau names from Charlemagne times. It has been over 400 years at this point since those would have been in use:

These divisions would be much better for the time period they are in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire#/media/File:HRR_1648.png For example shows some unified states that provinces could be based upon.


With regards to the area map, perhaps a better choice then modern bundeslande would be to go for the more in time Imperial Circles, with minor changes to satisfy both to an extend:


Below is how I would probably go with it, depending on size of areas of course as some include a ton of provinces, while others only 3

 

[Pavía]

Are those German content designers the same ones we have to thank for the drunk Bavarian province names of the latest EU4 patch by any chance?

Well, that's a kind of fun story, that maybe one day we'll tell publicly...

 

[Bohemian_warlord]

What about Lusatia? Shouldnt more of it have Slavic names?

Also Zittau was owned by John of Luxemburg during 1337.

 

[pyroclastic]

There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe)

It's currently thought, based on genetic evidence, that the Ashkenazi population at about this time went through an extremely small bottleneck, having on the order of 300 total individuals at the lowest. After this bottleneck, the population grew very rapidly for the next ~600 years.

So it might be most accurate to have a very small number of Ashkenazim pops at the start of the game, and then to have some mechanisms to encourage rapid natural growth and expansion of communities across Central and Eastern Europe.

I get that this would be hard to model, since we don't quite know why the Ashkenazi community grew so rapidly after the bottleneck and some sort of permanent +X% growth modifier would be abusable. But as is, I don' think having this many Ashkenazim in 1337 is accurate.



See https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835 , for example, or https://www.livescience.com/genetics-medieval-ashkenazi-jews-germany .

 

[Sigismund der Münzreiche]

always has been, Austria was settled by Bavarians, Austrian dialects are part of the bavarian dialect group.

You are correct. The austrian name for Austria, Österreich (sometimes Ostarichi in ye olde times) literally stems from the fact that it was the eastern most part of the bavarian realm.

 

[Pavía]

I'd assume that that's where IOs would come in, no? Unless I'm totally mistaken in my understanding other situation, this seems like to sort of situation which the mechanic was designed for.

Hmm, but then we'd need to make each location a different country, and the IO over them, which would also be kind of weird...

 

[klingonadmiral]

I agree and think that the best way would be to use the Imperial Circles as base and split if there are too big areas:

View attachment 1168256
So maybe like this:
View attachment 1168255
Styria should also include the "Mark an der Sann" so basically Cilli. Upper and Lower Austria could be combined to the Archduchy.

Tyrol should just be called Tyrol, as the addition of Trentino is also from the 20th century. It was all the County of Tyrol and nothing else.

Here's how I'd redraw western Germany:

The Imperial Circles were mostly based on political allegiance which led to there often ragged and disconnected looks, as the various territories a ruler had gained through inheritance would all belong to the same Imperial Circle.

Areas are supposed to represent geography, so they should follow rough geographical and cultural lines.

In detail:

The Upper Rhine area would be expanded into the southern half of Rhineland-Palatinate, all of the Alsace Area and the parts of the Western Swabia area bordering the Rhine. This is a very large area though might be necessitate a north/south split, but it would represent the dominant position the Rhine has in the history and economy of the region.

The two Swabian areas are united

A new Rhineland area is created from the Nordrhein-Westpfalen and Rheinland-Pfalz area, with the southern borders being roughly along the Mosel and/or the southern borders of the Mosel-Franconian dialect. This roughly matches the southern borders of the Prussian Rhine Province at the very end of the assumed timeline of the game.

A new Westphalia area is created from the northern remains of he Nordrhein-Westpfalen and the western arts of the Niedersachsen area.

 

[bokorthedust]

Well, that's a kind of fun story, that maybe one day we'll tell publicly...

I'll take that as a yes

 

[Dendra]

Great tinto maps!

A little detail I’ve been thinking about. Luxembourgish language today belongs to Frank Mosel dialects family, which is something between German and French leaning to the German side. Even today, the three official languages are German, French and Luxembourgish. I wonder why did you decide to make Luxembourgish dynasty French?

 

[Pavía]

Will the nature of these communities then at least be shown by some kind of government type or events or something?
And will it then be possible to naturally get to play for example the county of east frisia?

They're considered a 'Peasant Republic', which makes for some different gameplay.

 

[VikingNinja]

Perhaps the Saxon culture should be renamed to Thuringian. From what I understand, the people there were only named Saxons after they became part of the Electorate of Saxony which had origins in the Lower Saxon area. Before that, the people there would've mainly been settlers from the region of Thuringia during the Ostsiedlung.

Also why are the cultures in the Ostsiedlung areas so splintered already? Shouldn't they be larger and less splintered than the western German cultures, much like the difference between Iberia and France, since they would've mainly been long lines of settler populations spreading the easternmost German dialects of the time into those regions. This map showing the general spread of medieval German dialects is basically what I'm referring to, the more splintered western German dialects and more monolithic eastern German dialects.

 

[Pavía]

Speaking of Swiss Confederation. If we centralize the confederation, will we be able to Play as the “Federal State” of these members? As a Sort of Landless Country, Not own land directly but through the Federal States/Cantons/Provinces giving us a portion of their Income, Manpower and etc while those States/Cantons/Provinces own the land and have their own governments?

This would help represent the current state of the Swiss confederation, but also the Dutch Republic which was 7 Provinces (with their own governments) but united under one Federal State.
Or USA, where the States have their own land, laws, governments and rulers but are subject to the Federal Government of the United States

I think it's a debatable abstraction of how federal/confederal work. For instance, the Stadtholder of the Dutch Republic had power and jurisdiction over the provinces on certain issues, and that actually evolved into the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Landless IOs fit much better for non-territorialized authorities... Such as the HRE.

 

[Failtier]

About the areas: These borders are completely anachronistic, they were created after the allies dissolved Prussia and created new states in the partitioned Germany after WW2. Sachsen-Anhalt wasn't created until 1947.

If found this map of the Imperial Circles in 1512 which seems much more accurate for our purposes:

 

[Pavía]

I notice on the Polish front that there aren't any changes to that region. Does that mean that the Poland-Ruthenia-Baltic feedback turn is still a long while away? Or is it just that Western/Central Poland didn't need any facelift

The changes are work in progress, and not yet implemented in the game.

 

[FishNado]

Germany looks awesome, but I'm confused/concerned about the markets, It seems strange that there are 8x the locations, and only 4 markets cover almost all of Europe. Im wondering if it would make more historical sense, if at the beginning of the game in 1337, if there are many small markets, and as technology gets better, and roads get longer/better, then the markets get larger and the trade between markets gets better/easier/cheaper. I feel like the only market centers shouldn't be just Lübeck, Cologne and Prague.

 

[Pavía]

So the bordergore can get even worse? EU4 and Voltaire’s Nightmare have the HRE consolidate relatively quickly compared to historically, so I’m imagining that this will cause non-electors to remain numerous and fragmented far longer. Also Austria to break apart regularly before it becomes an Archduchy.

Yes!

 

[Pavía]

Question:

I was wondering about the culture of Saxon being "Lower Saxon and Saxon" versus "Lower Saxon and Upper Saxon." I was curious about the reasoning behind the naming, more or less.

I'll coment this with our Saxon content designer. He already rejected my proposal to create 'Best Saxony' and 'Worst Saxony', though.

 

[Kredy]

Why not Lausitz?

View attachment 1168228

I don't know that much about the history of Lusatia and the inahbitants at the time. Might make sense to include it as an area.

 

[Pavía]

the Hussite faith gonna be present in the game?

Of course! How we could avoid such fun content?