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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
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Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

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Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

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Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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Do you consider it too centralized for a bunch of smaller tags in an International Organization to be reasonable? Why? Or would that cause glitchy interactions with the HRE IO?
We would have to make 10 independent tags instead. That has its downside, as then the Frisian would be way more vulnerable to foreign threads than as a unified tag. In any case, just to point, we will analyze the feedback in a few weeks, and decide what to do with it.
 
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Is it even going to be possiple to form Germany?
Possible, yes, but it will be challenging; it took Brandenburg centuries and several wars to unify it.
 
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Its good to see that olives north of the alps and outside their climate zone were changed to wine and fruit and some other things like lumber. Im enjoying see all the goods locations and this is alot to go through, will there be further improvements of certain goods that were historically able to be extracted from areas like with the gold in Echigo japan in eu4 or the finding of iron and copper in Norway through mission style events or time based events?
We want to implement the most important of those through events, correct.
 
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When looking at the cultural borders, I noticed that most of them have a blend zone with the exception of (East) Franconian and Northern Bavarian (Upper Palatinate).

I would therefore suggest giving Nürnberg, Pegnitz and Weißenburg some Northern Bavarian pops (see also below map). Respectively, Neumarkt could get some East Franconian pops.

Furthermore, Ingolstadt and Neuburg also include territory north of the Danube, so they should get some Northern Bavarian pops, too.

Donauwörth already has some Danube Bavarians but maybe you will decide to rather split the province and add the Danube-Bavarian Rain (or Graisbach which was slowly decaying). ;)

csm_Karte_Bayerische_Dialektlandschaften_ca695eef12.jpg



See also my remarks about Regensburg and the County of Werdenfels (Garmisch):
 
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Oh boy my home region.

Elsfleth should definitely be a marsh. It covers the entire landscape "Wesermarsch", and another marshy area south of the Jadebusen. Especially in 1337 this was an extremely wet area.

Why does Bremen have a dynasty? Should be a merchant republic. Or do burghers have dynasty names too? The bishoperic was turned into a free city in 1303, and joined the Hansa just 20 years after the startdate.

And then the coastline isn't correct. Multiple large floods reshaped the coastline over the centuries. Exact maps for 1337 are hard to find though, so I think modern coastlines is maybe fine. (The Jadebusen should be much smaller in 1337 though, it got that big when dike broke in Brake and connected the Jade and Weser making Butjadingen (the northern part of Elsfleth) an island.

The area should also be economically extremely weak as it hadn't recovered from the Stedinger Crusade in 1234 where the bishop of Bremen basically wiped out the local population (or at least reduced then enough that they failed to get water management done and turned most fields back into brakish swamps)
The Burgmeister of Bremen is randomly generated, and thus he gets a random dynasty.
 
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"Burgmeister of Bremen" makes me thing of a head of state that pacifies his peasants with really good burgers.
It's actually spelt Bürgermeister, but I suppose you will still think of hamburgers instead of Burg = castle ;)
 
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Well technically the English word is Burgomaster (or burgermaster, not to be confused with burgerking) and the German word would have been very diverse based on the region and the time, I believe in Bremen he was called borghermester at the time.
 
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Yes, we have it!
Regarding partition on inheritance, how does it work exactly ? Is the land divided equally between the various eligible candidates on death of ruler, creating new tags in the process ? What happen if you already have only one location ? Can you get rid of this division by quitting the HRE, changing ranks, getting a "pass" from the emperor ? Finally, does it mean you'll tend to want / try to kill any successor you have beyond the first to keep the state intact ?
 
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Possible, yes, but it will be challenging; it took Brandenburg centuries and several wars to unify it.
Can we have any leak over this like ah, should we conquer all provinces and locations one by one to form, or there’d be any mechanic to follow?
 
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Well technically the English word is Burgomaster (or burgermaster, not to be confused with burgerking) and the German word would have been very diverse based on the region and the time, I believe in Bremen he was called borghermester at the time.
Great. It seems that English localization would eventually have some scripted_localization things, which is now widely used in French, German, Russian, etc to make the grammar expressed well.
 
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@Pavía I have some questions regarding vassals if you don't mind:

1. So Moravia is atm a proper vassal of Bohemia, ruled by the heir of Bohemia (Charles IV). In case Charles inherits Bohemia, will the two titles become PUs, or will Moravia (which will become a vassal of Bohemia that is also ruled by the same person) become Bohemia's dominion? Moravia being treated as a dominion of Bohemia would in fact make more sense historically;
2. If it does become a dominion rather than a PU or a vassal, is that a scripted special case for Bohemia-Moravia or is that how it works mechanically?
3. You have shown us, if I recall correctly, three types of vassals - vassals, appanages (as it was described, "a sort of vassal that may return to the ruler", in the French TM), and dominions (a lesser title subordinate to but separate from the main title ruled by the same person, such as Wales or Scania). Are there any more vassal types that you are yet to reveal?
4. What sort of vassalage title do colonial states get? Do they get a separate "colony" type, and more importantly, can you choose the type of vassalage your colonies get when you create them? Eg. if it is a proper feudal vassal, a dominion, or something else?
1. Bohemia and Moravia would be ruled under a PU by Charles, with Moravia still being a subject of Bohemia.
2. I just mentioned a few posts above a new type, 'fiefdom'; we have around a dozen different types, but this is not the place to talk more in-depth about them, but a future Tinto Talks.
 
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Will the early Swiss Confederacy IO be called the Eidgenossenschaft maybe in the early game? Or what will its name be, Helvetic Confederation? Acht Orte? Iirc the name "Swiss Confederation" from the name of Schwyz only became commonly used as a name for the entire thing much later

"Burgmeister of Bremen" makes me thing of a head of state that pacifies his peasants with really good burgers.
Another reason why it's a sick af name
 
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There are many extremely small provinces on the level of Rijeka.
Not really, there is only one at that level (Obergurgl with 62 pixels, which I already mentioned as a candidate to be removed), and only another one under 100 pixels (Genève, with 89).
 
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Possible, yes, but it will be challenging; it took Brandenburg centuries and several wars to unify it.
Will something similar to the German confederation (anything that fills the HRE role honestly) after the HRE is dismantled be possible?it would be a good chunk of the late game to include that
 
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Please tell me that actually winning the election to be emperor will also be much more challenging than in EU4.

At the very least, other AI candidates should take it seriously and be ready to attack competitors instead of doing nothing.
We want it to be more challenging around the start of the game while making it easier to make a dynastic Emperorship after the Golden Bull and some other reforms have been approved.
 
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Not really, there is only one at that level (Obergurgl with 62 pixels, which I already mentioned as a candidate to be removed), and only another one under 100 pixels (Genève, with 89).
Well, I meant in his proposal not on your current iteration of the map. E.g. the Heilbronn province in his proposal was a quarter of the current one (which actually in and of itself isn't on the larger end either).
 
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