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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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Probably a bit late, but in case you are not modeling locations after districts, but important settlements instead, I would like to make some suggestions for renaming locations in Brandenburg:

Havelberg to Perleberg
Perleberg was historically much more significant than Havelberg and later served as the capital of Westprignitz (since 1817). There is no documentation about when Havelberg was granted city rights whereas for Perleberg, it's documented for 1239. In 1309, Perleberg became member of the Hanse (Wiki), and Havelberg only became Hanse member in 1359 (Wiki). Moreover, in contrast to Havelberg, Perleberg had a castle (Gänseburg) which indicates that the city had a significant population and was administratively important. Perleberg was also the leader of the Prignitz League of Towns (Prignitzer Städtebund) in the 14th century (Wiki).

Wittstock to Pritzwalk
Wittstock and Pritzwalk were both granted city rights in the mid-13th century. Yet Pritzwalk was a member of the Hanse and was already well established as an administrative center of the Prignitz during the Middle Ages. Moreover, Pritzwalk was a major trade city with some level of autonomous jurisdiction and a market center which served the entire region and beyond (see this monograph published on the 750th anniversary of Pritzwalk).

Herzfelde to Bötzow (Oranienburg)
Frankly, I have never heard of Herzfelde, not to say that this place doesn't exist, but I question Herzfelde's significance. If you look at this map of Niederbarnim, you will see Herzfelde as part of eastern Niederbarnim. This is a result of the Prussian reforms of 1817; before, Herzfelde was part of Oberbarnim. I have already pointed out the difficulties / inconsistencies of using location names instead of districts, but let's stay with the current Project Caesar borders (which are very much post-Napoleonic).

In Niederbarnim, there are two settlements that are way more significant than Herzfelde: Oranienburg (formerly called Bötzow) and Bernau. The city of Bernau was important for beer brewery and is still a popular destination for day trips (I've been there). But administratively, it isn't. Oranienburg, on the other hand, had a castle built in the 13th century and served as an official residence (Amtssitz). In 1650, Friedrich Wilhelm gifted the settlement and the surroundings to his wife Louise Henriette von Oranien, and the newly built castle was henceforth called "Oranienburg," which was then used for the entire city (Wiki).

Freienwalde to Eberswalde
I understand the reasoning here to say that Freienwalde was used as a domain residence since 1618, but Freienwalde is beyond that pretty insignificant. It was first mentioned in 1316; Eberswalde, meanwhile, was a fully established city which served as the trade hub of Oberbarnim from 1317 onwards (Wiki). Moreover, different than Freienwalde, Eberswalde was directly governed by the Markgraf of Brandenburg whereas Freienwalde was a Mediatstadt rule by the von Uchtenhagen dynasty until 1618 (Wiki). Today, Eberswalde is also much more recognizable while Bad Freienwalde is mainly known as a spa resort.
I agree with the last two. Only let me point out that Herzfelde is located north of Templin, i.e. Herzfelde currently isn't in its own province.

Regarding Havelberg and Wittstock:
I already pointed out to you that the political situation of this area was different to those later maps. In 1337, the Bishopric of Havelberg still existed. It encompassed Wittstock (where the de-facto residence of its bishops was), Havelberg (the eponymous capital) and Perleberg.

1723114167036.png


The Bishopric already exists in their current iteration of the map and it was one of the bigger tags in this area. Therefore, I object to its removal. What I have suggested is to redraw the borders of the provinces for better representation:
1723114296913.png


Lenzen and Pritzwalk were both owned by Brandenburg in 1337, whereas Havelberg (with Perleberg included) and Wittstock were owned by the Bishopric of Havelberg until the Protestant Reformation.
 
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I agree with the last two. Only let me point out that Herzfelde is located north of Templin, i.e. Herzfelde currently isn't in its own province.

Regarding Havelberg and Wittstock:
I already pointed out to you that the political situation of this area was different to those later maps. In 1337, the Bishopric of Havelberg still existed. It encompassed Wittstock (where the de-facto residence of its bishops was), Havelberg (the eponymous capital) and Perleberg.

View attachment 1173014

The Bishopric already exists in their current iteration of the map and it was one of the bigger tags in this area. Therefore, I object to its removal. What I have suggested is to redraw the borders of the provinces for better representation:
View attachment 1173016

Lenzen and Pritzwalk were both owned by Brandenburg in 1337, whereas Havelberg (with Perleberg included) and Wittstock were owned by the Bishopric of Havelberg until the Protestant Reformation.
Tbh, if I could decide, as a player, I would vastly prefer your map over all other maps. My post was referring to the current map which only has Havelberg and Wittstock (because it's depicting the situation of 1817). Based on that, I would use Perleberg instead of Havelberg because Perleberg was the most important city of Prignitz. If we would have the situation with the Bishopric of Havelberg though, then Havelberg would be fine IMO (kinda sad that Perleberg wouldn't be resprented).

*edit* I wasn't aware that in the current setup, Havelberg is its own tag. If that is the case, then Havelberg would be fine, but again, I prefer your map over the current PC map.

Regarding Herzfelde, I believe Paradox Tinto mean Herzfelde bei Rüdersdorf in the southeast of Niederbarnim (as of 1817) (Wiki).
Karte_vom_Kreis_Niederbarnim.png
 
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Tbh, if I could decide, as a player, I would vastly prefer your map over all other maps. My post was referring to the current map which only has Havelberg and Wittstock (because it's depicting the situation of 1817). Based on that, I would use Perleberg instead of Havelberg because Perleberg was the most important city of Prignitz. If we would have the situation with the Bishopric of Havelberg though, then Havelberg would be fine IMO (kinda sad that Perleberg wouldn't be resprented).

*edit* I wasn't aware that in the current setup, Havelberg is its own tag. If that is the case, then Havelberg would be fine, but again, I prefer your map over the current PC map.

Regarding Herzfelde, I believe Paradox Tinto mean Herzfelde bei Rüdersdorf in the southeast of Niederbarnim (as of 1817) (Wiki).
View attachment 1173021
So just because it has caused some confusion now, here again the current map with Hav. = Havelberg (capital: Wittstock):
1723116235010.png


Herzfelde bei Rüdersdorf would be also odd, as it's in their current Berlin province (east of Berlin). Bützow (and later renaming it to Oranienburg) is a far better name.

Also thanks for the kind words. I hope that PDX will consider those borders of the Bishopric of Havelberg in their HRE 2.0.
 
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So just because it has caused some confusion now, here again the current map with Hav. = Havelberg (capital: Wittstock):
View attachment 1173028

Herzfelde bei Rüdersdorf would be also odd, as it's in their current Berlin province (east of Berlin). Bützow (and later renaming it to Oranienburg) is a far better name.

Also thanks for the kind words. I hope that PDX will consider those borders of the Bishopric of Havelberg in their HRE 2.0.
Thanks, and sorry for causing the confusion!
 
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Perhaps already commented, but I wanted to suggest two corrections of what I think were accidental mistakes:

1. Move woods from Utrecht to Amersfoort (the east side of Utrecht is the wooded and hillier side even today)
2. Move fruit from Amersfoort to Tiel (Tiel is the famous fruit producing capital of The Netherlands throughout the ages)
1723117081570.png

1723117137921.png


And finally I would suggest making Tiel marsh terrain as well.
 
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My man, I have known Palando for a while now. We once made some suggestions for EU4 about Austria and the HRE in general.

Let me tell you one thing; He is not a troll. He has put dozens, probably hundreds of hours into making suggestions, he knows the German language and the general area, has a lot of German sources and is open for discussion. He's an expert on this very complex area.

Basically all of his comments here in this thread are thought-out, listing pros and cons of certain suggestions made by others and done for one reason alone: To make the HRE-map as accurate as possible. His criticisms on your comments are well-founded (he explained his view in a objective way, in-line with Paradox' current design principles), and we shouldn't opt for ad hominems here.
Maybe it's better to ignore him, because I have a feeling that by commenting on his posts, you're adding fuel to the fire and as a result we fill the thread with stupid comments.
 
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The issue is that there just is not enough space for Villingen. Rottweil, the County of Fürstenberg and the Lordship of Triberg don't leave any space for Villingen.

EU V starts in 1337, so I'd rather pick a free city which actually was one in 1337 and lasted until the end of the HRE. This applies to Rottweil which even expanded its territory but doesn't to Villingen which ceased to be one even well before 1337. Rottweil was also an independent actor that allied the Swiss Confederation shortly in the 15th century. Fürstenberg endured until the end, too.
I still think this holding from Austria needs to be represented and here is my proposal to get space for Villingen location.
In your proposal Freiburg extent to far east and and St. Blasien extent to far north, if you give this to Fürstenberg/Villingen I think there is enough space for a "Konstanz-size" Villingen location.
Palando.jpg

Proposal based on following maps of HRE:
HRE1.jpg

HRE2.jpg
 
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I still think this holding from Austria needs to be represented and here is my proposal to get space for Villingen location.
In your proposal Freiburg extent to far east and and St. Blasien extent to far north, if you give this to Fürstenberg/Villingen I think there is enough space for a "Konstanz-size" Villingen location.
View attachment 1173317
Proposal based on following maps of HRE:
View attachment 1173318
View attachment 1173319
As you see in your map, the Austrian holding was very minuscule. There were many such holding in Further Austria, and we certainly can not represent all of them.

My proposal already has St. Blasien (PDX: Waldshut), Freiburg (PDX), Triberg (PDX), Ehingen, Altdorf (PDX: Waldsee, but Altdorf was the Austrian administrative centre of that region) and Riedlingen (PDX). PDX also has Horb instead of the far more important Tübingen (which was seat of the County of Tübingen), but Horb was owned by the County of Hohenberg and not Württemberg.

Binsdorf and Rottenburg would also be of comparable sizes but we simply can't represent every minor Austrian holding of 1337 or a later time.

Anyway, your proposed Villingen povince would not include Villingen.
1723186681325.png

Furthermore, it would not follow the borders of Further Austria not even in a simplified form (obviously we cannot represent every pixel and the borders have to look nice and clean).

1723186827219.png
 
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As you see in your map, the Austrian holding was very minuscule. There were many such holding in Further Austria, and we certainly can not represent all of them.

My proposal already has St. Blasien (PDX: Waldshut), Freiburg (PDX), Triberg (PDX), Ehingen, Altdorf (PDX: Waldsee, but Altdorf was the Austrian administrative centre of that region) and Riedlingen (PDX). PDX also has Horb instead of the far more important Tübingen (which was seat of the County of Tübingen), but Horb was owned by the County of Hohenberg and not Württemberg.

Binsdorf and Rottenburg would also be of comparable sizes but we simply can't represent every minor Austrian holding of 1337 or a later time.

Anyway, your proposed Villingen povince would not include Villingen.
View attachment 1173331
Furthermore, it would not follow the borders of Further Austria not even in a simplified form (obviously we cannot represent every pixel and the borders have to look nice and clean).

View attachment 1173332
Ok, my artistic skills are not the best, but with your shown Villingen position, Rottweil will be out of Rottweil location, too.
17231866813251.png
17231868272191.png
map.jpg


But let´s see what Pavia and the german content designer can do, maybe they more flexible and keep Villingen as location.
I would like to water siege Villingen with the Brigach dammed to put the city under water and re-write history.

If not possible, I have to wait for Voltaire´s Nightmare 5.0

Nevertheless, I like your work and passion for the HRE
 
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Ok, my artistic skills are not the best, but with your shown Villingen position, Rottweil will be out of Rottweil location, too.
View attachment 1173346View attachment 1173347View attachment 1173348

But let´s see what Pavia and the german content designer can do, maybe they more flexible and keep Villingen as location.
I would like to water siege Villingen with the Brigach dammed to put the city under water and re-write history.

If not possible, I have to wait for Voltaire´s Nightmare 5.0

Nevertheless, I like your work and passion for the HRE
Acc. to my approximations, Rottweil would be further west on the provincial borders. Nevertheless, it might be warranted to extend it a bit further east to make it clearer and maybe that way Oberhohenberg (capital of the County of Hohenberg) can get a connection to Triberg.

1723206795531.png


So maybe like this

1723206975648.png
 
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I do agree.

We really need more tags and colours in the HRE:p

What would we do without the Rhinecounty, Geroldseck-Veldenz, Fürstenberg, Zollern, Diepholz, Helfenstein, Berg-Schelklingen, Hachberg-Sausenberg, Friedberg, Colditz, Waldenburg, Castra Regina, Cologne, Straßburg, Kirchberg, Waldburg, Duino, Constantia, Suerinum, Altbruchhausen, Rietberg, Neuenahr, Colmar, Lupfen, Ellwangen, Truhedingen, Schweinfurt, Katzenelnbogen, Walkenried, Eger, Wertheim, Toggenburg, Brandenburgum, Querfurt, Straßburg, Nellingen, Schwäbisch Gmünd, Miesbach, Torgau, Dinkelsbühl, Misnia, Hochschlitz, Pyrmont and many more?!
 
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I do agree.

We really need more tags and colours in the HRE:p

What would we do without the Rhinecounty, Geroldseck-Veldenz, Fürstenberg, Zollern, Diepholz, Helfenstein, Berg-Schelklingen, Hachberg-Sausenberg, Friedberg, Colditz, Waldenburg, Castra Regina, Cologne, Straßburg, Kirchberg, Waldburg, Duino, Constantia, Suerinum, Altbruchhausen, Rietberg, Neuenahr, Colmar, Lupfen, Ellwangen, Truhedingen, Schweinfurt, Katzenelnbogen, Walkenried, Eger, Wertheim, Toggenburg, Brandenburgum, Querfurt, Straßburg, Nellingen, Schwäbisch Gmünd, Miesbach, Torgau, Dinkelsbühl, Misnia, Hochschlitz, Pyrmont and many more?!
Don't forget the Gurk! (If it possible as realisable tag)
 
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About Silesia, I think it is necessary to simulate Prussia's territory after taking Silesia to match history
1723252619340.png
1723252679530.png


The Kladsko location is good , but the Opava location need to be divided into two locations from the middle
1723252758584.png
 
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I really hope this is incorporated into the game. The vegetation map in the OP is better suited to Late Antiquity than the Middle Ages, much less the Early Modern period. Germany underwent deforestation in this period but not that much, and even if this was accurate to 1337 (which it isn’t) it would be horribly off for the latter half of the game.
@Pavía
can we get either an acknowledgment of error or an explanation as to why Germany is so heavily forested and light on farmland? This is the first time I’ve actually been shocked at a Tinto Map and I’m unsure how it ended up like this.
 
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I wonder - will there be any system in the game to prevent AI nations from eating up all their smaller neighbours and consolidating the HRE into 4-5 big nations, like often happens by the lategame in EU4?
 
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I wonder - will there be any system in the game to prevent AI nations from eating up all their smaller neighbours and consolidating the HRE into 4-5 big nations, like often happens by the lategame in EU4?
Partible inheritance was said to be in effect for all non-elector tags at the start, with new tags being created if there aren’t enough releasable cores. That should slow HRE consolidation dramatically and potentially allow it to become more fragmented. I’m not sure if that will stop electors from blobbing, or from super-PUs from consolidating multiple electors into multi-generational monarchy, but it should prevent an AI blobvaria from dominating southern Germany for example, at least in the early game.
 
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Really late but I have some questions and suggestions:

1. Why is the province of Leibnitz not called Graz, as that would be the biggest city of the province?
2. The province of "Styria" (which is just the english name for "Steiermark", a much bigger region) should be renamed to "Lower Styria" or "Untersteiermark" for a more accurate name
3. There is a province called "Grafschaft" which just means "County" in german ("Graf" is the german word for "Count"), so I wonder if this is intended
4. Why no Austrian culture? Will there be an event for Austrian culture to appear? When I play Austria I don't want to be stuck with "Danube Bavarian" culture the whole timespan of the game. I would suggest just splitting off Austrian culture from Bavarian at the start of the game as the north german cultures are also very split up
5. "Southern Bavarian" should probably be renamed to something like "Tyrolean" or "Carinthian" as this would fit better for the later parts of the games timespan
 
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