Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

[Ruwaard]

I truly appreciate the work that the 2 of you have done, and I too would prefer it if there wasn't such a visible drop in location density once one crosses the present-day Austro-Slovenian border. But even with more locations, I'd prefer Carniola as a province, or at the most 2. As an area it would just be too small. Salzburg area also being small isn't really a counterargument to me, because I think Salzburg should be either enlarged at the expense of Upper Bavaria or removed from the map.

No, Salzburg as a Prince-Archbishopric was an own entity by this point and IIRC has been at least since the days that the house of Wittelsbach gained the greatly diminished duchy of Bavaria, that's also the period that Salzburg gained imperial immediacy.
You could get Carniola as the name of the region, if southern Styria would be separated from Slovenia and added to Styria, then Carniola would be a better fit than Slovenia. OTOH they also had Nordrhein-Westfalen, Sachsen-Anhalt, Rheinland-Pfalz, which also doesn't fit with the era, when the HRE was ruled by the house of Luxembourg...

Regardless, I do appreciate the great work you did and I do think that Carniola and South Styria deserve the same level of detail as Carinthia, I do love how they did that.

 

[Clyde Wallach]

No, Salzburg as a Prince-Archbishopric was an own entity by this point and IIRC has been at least since the days that the house of Wittelsbach gained the greatly diminished duchy of Bavaria, that's also the period that Salzburg gained imperial immediacy.

Agreed, but I don't believe that should be relevant. Provinces and areas don't need to recreate the countries that existed at this time, and in fact can't. Look at Lorraine, for instance - the area is a hell of a lot bigger than the duchy, which is a fragmented mess. Given how fluid the map historically tended to be in this corner of the world, the abundance of exclaves (the archbishopric itself had some), the small size of most countries, and their sheer number, I see no reason to insist on basing any of the areas in the HRE on the existing countries.

And if you look carefully, you'll notice that the Salzburg area doesn't even correspond to the archbishopric. Besides the exclaves, it also fails to include Laufen and Mühldorf, but does contain Berchtesgaden, which was an independent provostry. Why? I assume that it excludes the former because they're now in Germany, the map being clearly influenced by modern borders, and includes the latter (which is also now German) to round up its shape. In other words, the area isn't based on the medieval country, its based on the post-1849 Austrian crownland (and post-1918 state) of Salzburg, plus Berchtesgaden to make it look less like a triangle that Bavaria took a bite out of.

Just adding Laufen and Mühldorf to the Salzburg area would balance things out a bit with neighboring Upper Bavaria, but I'd go even further and add the whole Chiemgau to it.

You could get Carniola as the name of the region, if southern Styria would be separated from Slovenia and added to Styria, then Carniola would be a better fit than Slovenia.

I certainly want to see Slovenia broken up (the area, not the modern-day country). But I'll go back to my point that Carniola would be rather small for an area - it works just fine as a province - and having a large Styria next to it actually reinforces the point.

OTOH they also had Nordrhein-Westfalen, Sachsen-Anhalt, Rheinland-Pfalz, which also doesn't fit with the era, when the HRE was ruled by the house of Luxembourg...

And it's pretty obvious from the opening post that they'll end up changing those. (It's actually the reason why my more in-depth reply to this thread is still a work in progress.)

 

[Ruwaard]

Agreed, but I don't believe that should be relevant. Provinces and areas don't need to recreate the countries that existed at this time, and in fact can't. Look at Lorraine, for instance - the area is a hell of a lot bigger than the duchy, which is a fragmented mess. Given how fluid the map historically tended to be in this corner of the world, the abundance of exclaves (the archbishopric itself had some), the small size of most countries, and their sheer number, I see no reason to insist on basing any of the areas in the HRE on the existing countries.

Lorraine makes more sense than you think, it roughly corresponds with Upper Lorraine, with Lower Lorraine being more to the north, mostly in modern day Belgium and the southern part of the Netherlands.
Not every country though, but the Luxembourg reign still has enough memory of the larger entity, they broke free from.

And if you look carefully, you'll notice that the Salzburg area doesn't even correspond to the archbishopric. Besides the exclaves, it also fails to include Laufen and Mühldorf, but does contain Berchtesgaden, which was an independent provostry. Why? I assume that it excludes the former because they're now in Germany, the map being clearly influenced by modern borders, and includes the latter (which is also now German) to round up its shape. In other words, the area isn't based on the medieval country, its based on the post-1849 Austrian crownland (and post-1918 state) of Salzburg, plus Berchtesgaden to make it look less like a triangle that Bavaria took a bite out of.

Berchtesgaden had imperial immediacy, adding it to Salzburg, or Upper Bavaria both has valid points. Given the start date IMHO Salzburg should be in the middle of these two.

Just adding Laufen and Mühldorf to the Salzburg area would balance things out a bit with neighboring Upper Bavaria, but I'd go even further and add the whole Chiemgau to it.

I can agree with the former, but vehemently disagree with the former.

I certainly want to see Slovenia broken up (the area, not the modern-day country). But I'll go back to my point that Carniola would be rather small for an area - it works just fine as a province - and having a large Styria next to it actually reinforces the point.

If Carniola gets the same treatment as Carinthia, Carniola like Carinthia could be a region.

And it's pretty obvious from the opening post that they'll end up changing those. (It's actually the reason why my more in-depth reply to this thread is still a work in progress.)

I certainly hope so. Still I know, how difficult these decisions can be. I contributed to the CK II SWMH mod, part of HIP, especially the HRE. Personally I took the Staufer (Hohenstaufen) era as a starting point, since it was the turning point between the earlier and the later era. covered by the CK series.
I understand this is harder in the EU-series era, yes very late Napoleonic princes were mediatized, but the other anchor point would probably be the CK-era,,,,

 

[Clyde Wallach]

Lorraine makes more sense than you think, it roughly corresponds with Upper Lorraine, with Lower Lorraine being more to the north, mostly in modern day Belgium and the southern part of the Netherlands.

Yes, Lorraine makes sense. It makes more sense than Salzburg, precisely because the area of Lorraine is not based on the 1337 country by that name but on an older territorial entity. Lorraine isn't the one I have problems with.

I can agree with the former, but vehemently disagree with the former.

Why should there even be an area named Salzburg to begin with? Notice that there's not a lot of areas in Western Europe named after a city.

The reason we can't agree on this is that you view Salzburg as a traditional region, of the same sort as Carniola, and react the way I'd react if someone proposed incorporating Istria into Carniola or Utrecht into North Holland (not that anyone would ever do such an absurd thing). And I view this as deeply misguided presentism. There are other countries in the HRE of similar size to Salzburg, also named after cities, at least one of which clearly outranked it in importance (the Archbishopric of Trier), that don't have areas named after them, never mind ones with matching borders. Even Luxembourg doesn't have its own area! You know Salzburg eventually survives as a territorial entity, and judge the map through that lens. But let me ask you, would you insist just as vehemently on an area named Trier with borders corresponding to that country?

I'd not only enlarge it with the Chiemgau, I'd even rename it to Salzburg & Chiemgau. Perhaps you'll see this as an acceptable compromise, perhaps you'll have even more problems with it.

If Carniola gets the same treatment as Carinthia, Carniola like Carinthia could be a region.

We need to get on the same page with regard to nomenclature. An area is made up of provinces. A province is made up of locations. My proposal was that Carinthia & Carniola should be the name of an area, and Carniola the name of a province within that area (alongside Upper and Lower Carinthia). All this talk of "regions" serves only to obfuscate the issue.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

I suggest adding a new location Wolin on the lagoon islands since Wolgast supposed to be on the mainland

 

[Chieron]

I suggest adding a new location Wolin on the lagoon islands since Wolgast supposed to be on the mainland
View attachment 1199238

Then call it Usedom, after the larger island? (Swinemünde had not been founded yet)
The town of Wolgast is on the mainland, but really controls the Peene. If it weren't ahistorical for the later Swedish control, I'd give the island of Wolin to the Kammin location, with Wolgast getting the banks of the Peene from Greifswald (adding a clear land border with Anklam)

 

[Clyde Wallach]

There are 3 errors in what is now the central part of the country of Austria:

• The location St. Johann im Ponzgau is labeled St. Johann in Tirol.
• The province of Lungau is actually to the east of the real Lungau, which more or less coincides with the location of Tamsweg.
• There's a province called Grafschaft, which is just the German word for county (as in, a polity ruled by a count). I'm almost certain that it's based on the County of Schaunberg.

Speaking of which, Schaunberg should be depicted as an Austrian vassal.

 

[prinscky]

Germany was famous for its silver production right? But I don't see many locations produces silver?

 

[Mef]

Germany was famous for its silver production right? But I don't see many locations produces silver?

If you're talking about the modern borders of Germany, then there are two famous silver mining regions: the Harz and the Ore Mountains.
While the Harz mines were very important during the High Middle Ages, they're already on the decline in 1337 (of course there should still be silver there), on the other hand the Ore Mountains haven't had their Berggeschrey yet in 1337, as that only happened after the Saiger Process of liquation was developed in the mid 15th century.

 

[prinscky]

If you're talking about the modern borders of Germany, then there are two famous silver mining regions: the Harz and the Ore Mountains.
While the Harz mines were very important during the High Middle Ages, they're already on the decline in 1337 (of course there should still be silver there), on the other hand the Ore Mountains haven't had their Berggeschrey yet in 1337, as that only happened after the Saiger Process of liquation was developed in the mid 15th century.

So the silver mine that made Germany a major silver production nation during the 16-18th century was primarily located to the Ore mountain not the Harz mountain? The game could employ a mine exploration mechanics for that~

 

[Mef]

So the silver mine that made Germany a major silver production nation during the 16-18th century was primarily located to the Ore mountain not the Harz mountain? The game could employ a mine exploration mechanics for that~

Yes, those silver mines will spawn later, that's already been stated by Pavía in this thread.
Germany wasn't really a major silver producer compared to Potosí after the 16th century, though. The German mines had a lot of hype and produced a lot, but they also failed pretty quickly. The mining boom in Joachimsthal on the Bohemian side of the Ore Mountains (not in Germany but a really famous case), for example, didn't even last 100 years.

 

[Clyde Wallach]

Most of the maps for Austria are from the historical atlas of Austria ("Historischer Atlas Österreich" by Manfred Scheuch).

Can you post one for the territorial evolution of Styria, please?

 

[Inzano]

I found these two maps a while back.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

Austria became a snake also Cilli changed

 

[Inzano]

Austria became a snake also Cilli changed
View attachment 1204013

They added Metlika and Ptuj, it seems that they have started working in the area of Reka towards Trieste, it is probably still being processed, so that the locations will be assigned to the Duino lordship. They haven't tackled Carinthia yet, Spital is still in the wrong location. It is true that Bled, Škofja Loka and Murau were finally assigned to their rightful owners

But I'm glad that progress can already be seen through other presentations of the game.

 

[Palando]

They added Metlika and Ptuj, it seems that they have started working in the area of Reka towards Trieste, it is probably still being processed, so that the locations will be assigned to the Duino lordship. They haven't tackled Carinthia yet, Spital is still in the wrong location. It is true that Bled, Škofja Loka and Murau were finally assigned to their rightful owners

But I'm glad that progress can already be seen through other presentations of the game.

My guess is that they started working on the Balkans which was presented in an earlier DD than the HRE.

 

[Inzano]

My guess is that they started working on the Balkans which was presented in an earlier DD than the HRE.

The Balkans are probably their priority, but in the meantime they are still supplementing the HRE.

 

[Clyde Wallach]

There should be Waldensian minorities in Steyr and Vienna at least, and possibly also in the rest of the Duchy of Austria and neighboring parts of Styria and Hungary. I'd limit myself to Steyr and Vienna because those are the places where persecutions are mentioned both before and after 1337.

Waldenser – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

Auch in Österreich gab es im 13. und 14. Jahrhundert waldensische Gemeinschaften. Nachweisbar sind sie hier seit der ersten Hälfte des 13. Jahrhunderts. Ihr Hauptverbreitungsgebiet lag im südlichen Donauraum vom Salzkammergut bis zum Wienerwald. In diesem Gebiet fand die Inquisition erstmals etwa um 1260 in über vierzig waldensische Gemeinschaften statt, wovon viele mit halböffentlichen Versammlungszentren („Schulen“) ausgestattet waren.[17]

Bis zum Einsetzen der Inquisition kann von einer Duldung der Nachbarn waldensischen Glaubens durch die katholische Mitbevölkerung ausgegangen werden. Die Inquisition ab etwa 1260 drängte die Waldenser in den Untergrund, es kam zu zahlreichen Hinrichtungen. Neuerlich verfolgt wurden die Waldenser 1311–1315 in den Gebieten um Steyr, St. Pölten, Wien und Krems sowie um etwa 1370 im Gebiet von Steyr, das als Hochburg des Waldensertums gesehen wird. Im Zuge der letztgenannten Verfolgungswelle kehrten einige hochrangige Mitglieder der Waldensergemeinde zum Katholizismus zurück und griffen ihre ehemaligen Mitbrüder in Pamphleten an. Unter dem Inquisitor Petrus Zwicker kam es von 1391 bis 1402 neuerlich zu schweren Verfolgungen, u. a. in Steyr, Enns, Hartberg (Steiermark), Ödenburg und Wien. 1397 wurden in Steyr zwischen 80 und 100 Waldenser verbrannt, woran dort ein 1997 errichtetes Denkmal erinnert.

 

[Inzano]

Austria became a snake also Cilli changed
View attachment 1204013

Now it can be seen that Carniola was divided into several provinces.

 

[frdrcse]

Since rivers seem to play a bigger role in CP.
Is it just me, or are rivers not visible on the map?
Are there any infos about the rivers currently implemented in the Germany region?
If not, I would suggest adding at least the 10 biggest ones to the game:
Rhein, Elbe, Donau, Main, Weser, Saale, Spree, Ems, Neckar, Havel.