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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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A lot of the German regions appear based on the modern federal states of Germany. "Rhineland-Westphalia" and "Rhineland-Palatinate" immediate stood out to me. Having a "Rhineland" area makes much more sense at this time than dividing it like this, especially when you factor in France's ambitions to conquer it during the Modern Era. "Styria" and "Carinthia" should also extend to the "Slovenia" area which probably shouldn't exist as a clearly defined region at this time.

View attachment 1168079

As stated in the Balkan Tinto Maps, making Moravian a separate culture is sensible, but in such a case "Czech" should be renamed to "Bohemian", the term was used all the time during the game's timeline.
Any reason Bavarian is split between Danube and South? Why not just "Bavarian"? Same with High vs. Rhine Allemanic, "High" is an entirely linguistic term, just name the culture "Allemanic", if you really want them to be separate rename Rhine Allemanic to "Alsatian". I also don't get the point in not just naming "Low Franconian" to "Dutch", are you afraid of offending Dutch-speaking Belgians? It's my understanding that if anything they take more issue with the name "Flemish" since that only refers to one region of the country while "Dutch" is the name of their language.
In general there is an overabundance of these linguistic terms that sound very awkward and modern, but I can't really tell you any other alternatives besides these ones.
as a Slovenian, I can agree with you, in the project ceaser timeframe, having historical borders of Carniola, Carinthia and Styria alongside with Gorizia and the eastern most part in Hungary makes a lot more sense.
 
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Lovely work!
Just wanted to know if you plan on going over culture numbers and percentages at some point, and in which regions.

Not to sound like a broken record but
1721999537712.png


Also, Trieste should be Friulian, not Slovene (as per the changes you listed in the Italy review last week).

Wrt provinces, it hurts my eyes a bit to see a southwest and southeast tyrol, I would merge them and give Cles/Gloess and Cavalese/Gabloess to Trentino/Welschtirol. This way you're not packing 9 locations in a single province, and Trentino can have 5.
 
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I've shared too many suggestions already, let me add a compliment aswell, thank you for adding wine good in Maribor, since that region is very known for its wine and has the oldeste wine plant in the world.
 
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I´m going to say it again, atleast some of the borders of Bohemia should be mountains, Scotland has them, why not Bohemia, not to mention Krkonoše, Jizerské hory, Ore mountains, and especially Šumava have peaks that are over 1000 m (on the Czech side too). Also in the Czech side, and brobably German too, there should be more resourses, like copper, tin and lead. Lastly Pernštejn should be producing marble, as in its vicinity was a relativly big deposit of white marble, that was mined since Middle ages to the 20th century, the local castle Pernštej was rebuild with some decorations being made out of marble.
 
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Regarding Styria
While I'm not sure what the correct name for the province encompassing the Locations of Leoben, Graz, and Leibniz would be at the time (the division of Styria into quarters/Viertel and later Kreise was only started quite some time after game start) I'm pretty sure Leibniz isn't the correct one, Graz was already a fair bit more important, becoming the seat of the inner-Austrian Habsburgs after the division.

The Locations of Maribor and Celje being part of a province named Styria (there might also be a better name for that one, maybe lower Styria/Untersteiermark or named after Celje) but not being part of the Area of Styria/Steiermark might also be worth another look.
 
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Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zelland,

I remember that later he inherited Hainaut, Holland and Zeeland. And was excomunicated by Pope because how powerful he had become. Will there be an event for that?
 
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de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty)

If there's multiple rulers all from the same dynasty, and they're all different cultures, whose culture decides whether the dynasty uses 'de' or 'von' etc.? The most powerful ruler's culture is applied?
 
Such an impressive map !

Concerning Switzerland, I have the following suggestions to make :

1. The Saas Fee location should be renamed Visp (which is a more important city than the small Saas Fee village).

2. The Bern location is too much in the south. It should be situated where the Biel location is (and Biel should take the southern half of the Courtelary location).

3. As I mentioned in a previous map thread, Yverdon-les-bains is a modern name of the city. Before the end of the 20th century, it was simply called Yverdon. This location is also quite big, maybe the southern half, next to the lake, could be the “Morges” location.

4. It would be cool if an “Appenzell” location could be carved out of the northern part of the Sankt Gallen location. By doing this, all Swiss cantons would have their own location (except for the half cantons which would be grouped together).

Thanks for the great work !
 
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Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
View attachment 1167612
I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zelland, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
View attachment 1167613
The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
View attachment 1167615
We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
View attachment 1167616
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
View attachment 1167621
Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
View attachment 1167622
Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
View attachment 1167623
View attachment 1167624
View attachment 1167625
Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
View attachment 1167626
Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
View attachment 1167629
Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1167630
Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
View attachment 1167632
The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
View attachment 1167633
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
Basel should not be a part of Neuchatel

they are different in culture, and language.
1722001795250.jpeg


On this map, you can see that the city of Basel itself is controlled by Cant. Basel, which is much closer to Aargau.

1722001544879.png
1722001523658.png


I think Basel and Solothurn deserve the same treatment as Wallis
1722002154524.png
1722002112288.png
 
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Looks very cool :) You should maybe consider revising the regions in Germany. The "Länder" of today such as Rhineland-Palatinate, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Sachsen-Anhalt etc. have been created after WW2 from more historical provinces, hence the rather bothersome hyphens. More fitting would be granular regions like "Rheinland", "Pfalz", "Westpfalen", "Saargebiet" etc.
 
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Oh wow, I can even see my town!
 
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Great job! I have 2 quick questions:
1-Why isn't Magdeburg a prelate? They are an archbishoprick like every other prelate
2-Why isn't Bar part of the HRE? Is it because they are a vassal of France? They should be vassals of both
 
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A lot of the German regions appear based on the modern federal states of Germany. "Rhineland-Westphalia" and "Rhineland-Palatinate" immediate stood out to me. Having a "Rhineland" area makes much more sense at this time than dividing it like this, especially when you factor in France's ambitions to conquer it during the Modern Era. "Styria" and "Carinthia" should also extend to the "Slovenia" area which probably shouldn't exist as a clearly defined region at this time.

View attachment 1168079

As stated in the Balkan Tinto Maps, making Moravian a separate culture is sensible, but in such a case "Czech" should be renamed to "Bohemian", the term was used all the time during the game's timeline.
Any reason Bavarian is split between Danube and South? Why not just "Bavarian"? Same with High vs. Rhine Allemanic, "High" is an entirely linguistic term, just name the culture "Allemanic", if you really want them to be separate rename Rhine Allemanic to "Alsatian". I also don't get the point in not just naming "Low Franconian" to "Dutch", are you afraid of offending Dutch-speaking Belgians? It's my understanding that if anything they take more issue with the name "Flemish" since that only refers to one region of the country while "Dutch" is the name of their language.
In general there is an overabundance of these linguistic terms that sound very awkward and modern, but I can't really tell you any other alternatives besides these ones.
Well Flemish is a language, and dialect in a sense. Someone from West Flanders and the Netherlands really struggle to understand each other, but it's still very similar in a way