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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
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The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
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Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
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Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
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Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
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Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
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Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
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The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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Could you please spare us by adding Vaduz as a location by splitting it off from Feldkirch, so that we may establish Liechtenstein as a glorious tax haven. Also Obergurgl is such a tiny location and I love it, although it's inconsitstently small, as it's the same size that a hypothetical island Venice would be, which was rejected for being too small. So wouldn't Obergurgl also be a bit too small and hard to click?

Obergurgl.png

P.S Thanks for the amazing HRE, everyone on the team is amazing!
 
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Not bad, but some of those provinces seem to have weird names that aren't Ulm? Upper Bavaria? S.G.? Henneberg? I mean, it's kinda funny, coming up with those weird fantasy places, but seriously. Just do the historically accurate thing and name them Ulm, Ulm, and Ulm. Alternatively, Ulm, Ulm or Ulm would also be acceptable. Mostly, there should be Ulm, all the time, everywhere.
 
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HRE IO should be reworked imo. Get rid of the purple stripes, just grey out every country not in the hre when in the map mode and have the colors for various roles be full colors. No need for stripes at all imo, it doesn't convey anything useful if the non-hre countries are already greyed out. It just makes it look visually messy and unpleasant.
 
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The tag Obwalden seems to cover both the area of Obwalden and Nidwalden. Since having both would probably result in too small locations, why not call the tag Unterwalden instead? That is what the combination of both is called and it is referred to like that in the founding documents of the Old Swiss Confederacy.
 
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so here is the place to suggest my location of 12 monks to be inserted into the game? ^^ More serious note.. i never found out who "owned" the village. on maps it would be more or less "various"
 
Areas:
View attachment 1167622
Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.
The colour coding of the lower part of HRE looks like it is related more to France than to the upper part. I think it is strange and it is better to change that to either an upper colour pallet or a third new one
 

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Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

That's definitely true for the Northern German Areas (like Nordrhein Westfalen, Sachsen-Anhalt, Niedersachsen), which are much more modern administration areas. You could perhaps look into the old Saxonia district administration, which had Eastphalia and Angria as subdivision beside Westphalia itself, which are quite the size you perhaps look for an area. There use became more and more obsolete by the time a lot smaller duchies were established, but they still would be much more historical then the modern ones.

(Sorry, I can't attach the Wikipedia articles because your system say they are spam, but just search there for a map of Eastphalia and Angria).
 
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I also don't get the point in not just naming "Low Franconian" to "Dutch", are you afraid of offending Dutch-speaking Belgians? It's my understanding that if anything they take more issue with the name "Flemish" since that only refers to one region of the country while "Dutch" is the name of their language.
Just for the record confirming that your understanding in this regard is definitely incorrect :)

"Dutch" and "Belgian" would both be historically correct names and more recognisable names for this culture, but either choice ends up with issues from about 250 years in game up to today.
 
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Tyrolean here with some input regarding specifically North Tyrol. There's a lot I like. Awesome to see so many locations but here's just a couple of suggestions I want to make.

In Terms of locations: Many are very well represented and I'm aware that there's a lot of considerations you guys have to make in terms of scale and many other factors but definately the Wörgl location has to be renamed because it's completely wrong. Irl Wörgl is actually roughly between your Schwaz and Kufstein Location. The Wörgl location in your map is kind of akward. In my opionion it could be merged or potentially even made a wasteland because it's mostly mountains. Whatever you decide it should not be called Wörgl. Generally I'd say the rest of the locations and names are acceptable although they might be improved. I think Galtür could be Landeck instead. I saw someone suggest Kufstein to be Rattenberg and Kitzbühel to become Kufstein. Either version yours or his are ok in my opinion.

Resources: Generally fine BUT there's one BIG PROBLEM: Schwaz absolutely has to have Silver instead of Livestock. The mine there was one of the most significant producers of Silver in Europe for about 200 years in the 15/16 century. The amount of Silver there is so vast that there's still a lot left today, however it's not being exploited anymore because Silver has become to "cheap" to mine it there and make a profit. If you discard everything else in this post, that's ok but the change to Silver is a must.

Provinces: So there's Oberinntal, Unterinntal, Zillertal and Kufstein there. While again, I get compromises in terms of scale vs geography the naming of these is a little akward. One thing first up. I would suggest renaming Oberinntal to Oberland and Unterinntal to Unterland. These naming conventions are much more common. Now Where your Unterinntal is, that area, since it's right in the middle is usually considered neither Ober nor Unterinntal and Kufstein is part of the Unterinntal irl. I'd say you could rename your Unterinntal province to Innsbruck Land, and your Kufstein province to Unterland. So then it would be: Oberland, Innsbruck Land, Unterland (and Zillertal below) but if you decide to leave it as is it's not the end of the world.

Topography: The final thing I would like to add is something that's very important to me and that is the topic of impassable terrain. In your map the only wastelands/impassable terrain is towards the South but there's zero on the northern border of North Tyrol/Bavaria. That is not how it is in reality at all. Almost the entirety of the northern border is completely impassable except for a handful of passes. You can imagine the Inn Valley basically like a long, bent tube going from West to North East, only allowing passage north in a few places. Now here's the issue. I get that again because of scale most but not all of the locations have a pass that allows passage to the north and so you decides to have the entirety of the norther border passable but here's my suggestion: Add at least a thin strip of impassable terrain between the border of the Innsbruck and Garmisch location. There's not one pass in the entire "location" and it's not possible to cross. If you can you could make thin strips of wasteland along most of the border and only leave out visually enlarged versions of the irl passes. I'll add my crude drawing down below.

Red is my suggestions for impassable terrain (broadly, sry for the terrible doodle)
Purple is two important passes. 1 = Zirl to Mittenwald, the Via Claudia Augusta went through there, 2 = Achenpass
Yelleow is the Innvalley itself bending up north and leaving the alps outwards to Rosenheim. Easiest, widest and flattest path.

Thank you for reading. I hope it wasn't a waste of time but some decent input for you.
Locations 4.png
 

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Great Tinto Maps, I was looking forward to it!
One thing I noticed is that you portrayed Basel only as the Prince-Bisphoric of Basel, which should be correct for this starting date. However the City of Basel started to somewhat self-govern itself already almost 150 years prior, although still under the control of the bishop.
(s. 2.1 https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/007478/2017-05-30/#HUnterfFCrstbischF6flicherHerrschaft)

It then continued to collect and buy rights that further increased its independence in the 14th century, which made it more or less an independent entity. However it's recognized independence as a free city of the HRE was not recognized until all bishopric competencies were removed in the 16th century (s. 2.2.). Would be nice if you could add some flavor to that town, especially because it became kinda important later, for example with the council of Basel (1431), later in the spread of the printing press and the reformation, and with people like Erasmus and Paracelsius residing there for some time. Also here are some pop estimates for the City in the 14th century, as the whole of the bsiphoric seems a bit on the low end with only 8291: https://altbasel.ch/fragen/einwohne...Früher ging man für das,je nach Lage der Zeit.

Long story short, it would be nice if the City of Basel was somehow a subject of the bishopric, or at least a releasable tag. Could you provide some info on whether the latter is already true?

And I think to add to that: if it's not too much too ask I think most people would be interested in which releasable tags can be found in the HRE?

Edit: added working links to sources
 
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Regarding Culture map. I really like it. I'd maybe just change Wesern Pommeranian culture to be less dominant and put Polabian cultures as majority in Wolin/Rugia islands up the north. But I really like it how you represented borders of slavic speaking people before German crusades
 
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The cherry on the cake of European maps!!!

I can't wait for the feedback - just like the other maps.
 
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