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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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Alrighty then. Thus I must beg, when India? o_O
Also are y'all still decided upon doing just 1 Indian tinto map? :(
After some other Tinto Maps, and before some other Tinto Maps.
 
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From what I can tell, the lowest population country there has 11k people.

Can't wait till someone figures out a WC with them.
 
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We wanted to start with a smaller region, so people could get used to the granularity of the map and the feedback workflow we wanted to implement, before going into wider regions.

I'd have to check in detail, but approximately 10-12M.

Do you guys have any "fixed" limits for a location size, or do you just eyeball it based on how dense you feel the region should be? Similarly, what are the upper/lower numbers for locations per province/area, if you have any established?
 
Why is there no Austrian culture while we already have German Prussian and German Silesian at the start? German migration to Austria started like 3 centuries earlier.

Because we think that this portrays the situation of 1337 more accurately.
I have to agree with Pavia, as the language can be divided into three blocks (northern, central (Danube) and southern). The splintering into two blocks only happened far later on, as Munich and Vienna respectively had influences on each country's inhabitants during the 19th/20th centuries.

If you wanted to split the Danubian Bavarians, Salzburg and the Innvalley would all be Bavarian, too. This might upset some people :p
Regarding Styria
While I'm not sure what the correct name for the province encompassing the Locations of Leoben, Graz, and Leibniz would be at the time (the division of Styria into quarters/Viertel and later Kreise was only started quite some time after game start) I'm pretty sure Leibniz isn't the correct one, Graz was already a fair bit more important, becoming the seat of the inner-Austrian Habsburgs after the division.

The Locations of Maribor and Celje being part of a province named Styria (there might also be a better name for that one, maybe lower Styria/Untersteiermark or named after Celje) but not being part of the Area of Styria/Steiermark might also be worth another look.
I can answer that question with this map, as it'd be best to base it on the name of the counties (although some would need to be combined):
1722003714835.png
 
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I remember that later he inherited Hainaut, Holland and Zeeland. And was excomunicated by Pope because how powerful he had become. Will there be an event for that?
There will be content to portray and play the Hook and Cod Wars.
 
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A lot of the German regions appear based on the modern federal states of Germany. "Rhineland-Westphalia" and "Rhineland-Palatinate" immediate stood out to me. Having a "Rhineland" area makes much more sense at this time than dividing it like this, especially when you factor in France's ambitions to conquer it during the Modern Era. "Styria" and "Carinthia" should also extend to the "Slovenia" area which probably shouldn't exist as a clearly defined region at this time.

View attachment 1168079

As stated in the Balkan Tinto Maps, making Moravian a separate culture is sensible, but in such a case "Czech" should be renamed to "Bohemian", the term was used all the time during the game's timeline.
Any reason Bavarian is split between Danube and South? Why not just "Bavarian"? Same with High vs. Rhine Allemanic, "High" is an entirely linguistic term, just name the culture "Allemanic", if you really want them to be separate rename Rhine Allemanic to "Alsatian". I also don't get the point in not just naming "Low Franconian" to "Dutch", are you afraid of offending Dutch-speaking Belgians? It's my understanding that if anything they take more issue with the name "Flemish" since that only refers to one region of the country while "Dutch" is the name of their language.
In general there is an overabundance of these linguistic terms that sound very awkward and modern, but I can't really tell you any other alternatives besides these ones.
I agree, it stood out to me immediately. And after some research, I discovered that both names come from 1940s post-war occupation and redrawing of the state lines. Whose names come from prior statenames, like the Prussian Rheinprovinz (Rheinland-Pfalz and Westrheinwestfalen), created in 1822 and got it's name from the Großherzogstum Niederrhein. Which got founded in 1815. Bavarian Rheinkreis (used for Rheinland-Pfalz) got first used in 1816. Before that the various regions were much more split.

There is also Sachsen-Anhalt. Once again, very much out of time. That used to just be part of Saxony directly.

In my opinion the old names of Pfalz and Rheinland (as well as redrawing the region lines), plus a newly created Westfalen region would be much simpler. It would align more with the geography and historical regional names, rather than just being a redone BRD (shorthand for current form of Germany).

Lets maybe not ignore the imperial circle maps of the 1500s (as set in the Diet auf Augsburg).
Map_of_the_Imperial_Circles_(1512)-en.png


I know the borders aren't pretty, but it can serve as an Inspiration for names. Niedersachsen was further east and basically encompassed the region, that the Saxons held before Karl the Great conquered them. The current map reflects the modern location.

This seems to be a general theme, where northern Germany gets modern map allocation, in spite of better alternatives.
 
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Just for the record confirming that your understanding in this regard is definitely incorrect :)

"Dutch" and "Belgian" would both be historically correct names and more recognisable names for this culture, but either choice ends up with issues from about 250 years in game up to today.
"Dutch" at this time referred to all continental Germanic peoples before it narrowed down to mean "Netherlanders", who were the continental Germanic group that had the most contact with England and her empire, I don't think it's exactly anachronistic to use it at this time. "Low Franconian" is arguably more anachronistic I'd wager, is it not a modern linguistic term?
 
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If there's multiple rulers all from the same dynasty, and they're all different cultures, whose culture decides whether the dynasty uses 'de' or 'von' etc.? The most powerful ruler's culture is applied?
That of the head of the dynasty, which IIRC is the most powerful (although don't take it as 100% sure, I'm speaking from memory).
 
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The Schwaz silver mines were famous enough to get their own event in EU4. Now we have Schwaz in the game and it produces...livestock? Or will there be an event to change this early 15th century?
 
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I also don't get the point in not just naming "Low Franconian" to "Dutch", are you afraid of offending Dutch-speaking Belgians? It's my understanding that if anything they take more issue with the name "Flemish" since that only refers to one region of the country while "Dutch" is the name of their language.
In general there is an overabundance of these linguistic terms that sound very awkward and modern, but I can't really tell you any other alternatives besides these ones.

It's not the same.

Remember that "dutch unificiation/culture" really started to become a thing after the 80 years war.

Low franconian is correct to indicate a melting pot of cultures that have similar traits but are obviously not just "dutch" esp in this timeframe. One could say the cultures were even more granular, like: "flemish", "brabantian", "limburgian", "zealandic", "kleverlandish", "gelre", "holland", etc.

I think low franconian is an accurate name. Using "dutch" for all of these in 1337 is incorrect. Dutch isn't flemish and flemish isn't dutch.
 
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Really love this map. I'm not an expert by any mean, but if i may add my grain of salt...

I'd suggest adding a Saint-Maurice province to the left of Martigny in Switzerland as I think it was quite relevant during the time period.

And speaking about salt, maybe a bit of salt as a raw good around Montreux or Monthey to represent the Bex salt mine.
(after checking out it opened in 1554 https://www.saline.ch/fr/saline-de-bex/ so maybe not at start date, but maybe as an event or something like this ?)

Anyways fantastic job I know I'll love playing around this area.
 
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Few thoughts and questions from first impressaion:

1) Change Celje RGO from Wheat to Lumber or maybe Lead/Tin, sincethe area is mostly rugged hills covered with woods and forests.

2) Those low population numbers cant be possibly historically accurate. Still WiP?

3) Any wars or other diplomatic relations active at the game start?

4) Do different dynasties have their possibility for inheritance set up at game start?
 
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Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
View attachment 1167612
I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zelland, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
View attachment 1167613
The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
View attachment 1167615
We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
View attachment 1167616
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
View attachment 1167621
Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
View attachment 1167622
Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
View attachment 1167623
View attachment 1167624
View attachment 1167625
Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
View attachment 1167626
Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
View attachment 1167629
Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1167630
Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
View attachment 1167632
The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
View attachment 1167633
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
1722004213282.png

Why Stormarn Gau and Gau Polabi are the only provinces where "gau" is not connected to the word stem (For provinces lower everything works as it should)
 
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