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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

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Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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Moravia has rarely been controlled by the same person as Bohemia up to 1337, until 1182 it was divided between 'údělná knížata' and from 1182 it was held by the moravian margrave. All of them had their own agendas, distinct from those of the king in Prague.
All subservient to the Duke/King in Prague. Moravia was an autonomous entity separate from Bohemia proper all the way until 1939 but the Slavs living there were always Czechs, not some separate Moravian people.
As for the culture I do not think it is unfair. As Moravians were in the beginning a completely separate set of tribes from those of Bohemia, and 1337 barely stretches into the Ostsiedlung era, which was the first time the border area between Bohemia and Moravia was properly settled and proper cultural exchange began.
You're speaking like those "completely separate tribes" didn't speak pretty much the exact same language. Note how Slavic languages even today are much closer to each other than those in other language families, especially the West Slavic languages. Even Czech and Polish are intelligible if you rewrite the Polish diphthongs as the Czech letters or vice-versa.

Take for example the Hussite faith, which was mostly widespread among Czechs. The people in Moravia also converted to it and towns like Brno and Olomouc were important centres of Hussite activity. Jan Hus reformed the Czech writing system, which was also used in Moravia. Clearly the two regions were extremely similar if Moravia mirrored all the cultural events happening in Bohemia. The division of the two was purely feudal.
 
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I'm from Berlin (like for real), and I want to give some quick feedback on Brandenburg (Wikipedia link here):
I am not sure on what the current layout is based on; maybe the most significant settlements in the area? It looks like you partly mixed that with the provinces (Ruppin is a province and location), so for me your approach is not very clear.

Nonetheless, I suggest some changes to the provinces based on this map:
  • Altmark split in two to have Almark west of the Elbe river and Prignitz east of it
  • Citizi, I have never ever heard of that. If it ever existed, it doesn't exist anymore. I suggest to rename it to Jerichow and to make it significantly smaller so that it's representing those lands in between the Elbe river and Havel river
For locations, there is this map which is based on counties (Landkreise) of the Kurmark (source is here)


According to this map, the historical counties are: Altmark, Prignitz, Ruppin, Uckermark, Havelland incl. Potsdam and Brandenburg, Glien and Löwenberg, Niederbarnim incl. Berlin, Oberbarnim, Lebus, Zauche, Luckenwalde, Teltow, Bees and Storkow. At least Ober- and Niederbarnim existed for a very long time as Barnim was divided into two in 1451 (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreis_Oberbarnim). According to Christopher Clark's map in chapter 1 The Hohenzollerns of Brandenburg: HEARTLAND (I don't have the page no.), it's Altmark, Prignitz, Kurmark, Uckermark, Mittelmark, Neumark (not posting the map for copyright reasons).

Again I am not sure whether the location names are based on the most significant town, or the historical district or something else, and I need to do more research to give more proper feedback.

References
Clark, Christopher M. Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia, 1600–1947. Penguin History. London: Penguin Books, 2007.
 

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Perhaps a political decision by the duke of Racibórz, whose borders coincide with the intrusion for the most part. It was confirmed that rulers can entice their territories to be more partial towards the market of the ruler's choice.
I was assuming that that result was the system not working as intended, your reply adds an interesting second possibility.

Now I really hope some Dev would respond... ;)
 
Are there any other I.O. beside the H.R.E and the catholic church in Germany atm or even planned?
Is it not enough with the HRE and the Catholic Church, that you already want even more wonky institutions in Germany? :p

I don't think we have any more IOs for the first two ages, but then things may spice up when the Age of Reformation and certain Saxonian priest appear...
 
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So cool to see !!

I have suggestions for the Alsace région :

You have inverted Upper Alsace and Lower Alsace (I know, it sounds strange, but it's about the Rhine river. South IS Upper.)

Approximatly ten years after the beginning, the Decapole (or Decapolis, for 10 cities) will be created from the union of 10 free impérials cities in Alsace. It seems maybe strange to not see any free city in Alsace in 1337 ?

The Decapolis is formed by :

Haguenau
Obernai
Sélestat (Schlettstatt in Alsacian)
Colmar
Mülhouse
Wissembourg
Turckheim
Rosheim
Kaysersberg
Munster

It was I think, represented in EUIV by the addition of the republic of Mulhouse and one of the swabian idea. It was a good idea to represent the region well.
More of that, the Habsburg tried hard top take control over Alsace. But they had hard time doing it.
Ensisheim
Vallée de Villé (Willer thal)
Union with Ferrette
And maybe very northen Alsace
All of that was Indeed Habsburg territories.
I really like how Alsace has already changes, and all of theese are suggestions only of course ! I love your work, keep doing such a good job :D !!
(Sorry english is not my first nor second language. I'm Alsacian of course !)
 
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There's something that I've been curious about for a long time and now that a tinto maps about HRE/Germany is here, a good place to ask.

1. Are there multiple ways to dismantle the HRE? Like the Emperor losing multiple war in a row against non-HRE nations
2. Is the unification of the HRE into one nation an exclusive feature to the HRE Emperor while other nations of german culture only get the option to become Germany? Or is the formation of Germany impossible as long as the HRE exist?
3. When you form Germany, will it become one nation or is it going to be a Federation? If it becomes a federation, will it create a new IO?
 
Lands of the Czech Crown fix (WIP)

Locations:
Tábor was founded by hussites, Soběslav was the most important city there in early modern era
Pernštejn->Doubravnický Újezd or shortly Doubravník
Jáchymov was founded in 16th century. Maybe rename it to Ostrov
Český Krumlov->Krumlov

Provinces:
Historically Bohemia was divided into 12 Kraj during 14th century (pražský, slánský, žatecký, litoměřický ,boleslavský, hradecký, chrudimský, čáslavský, bechyňský, prácheňský, plzeňský a rakovnický).
Which means...
that Slánský and Rakovnický was merged into Pražsko, OK.
Chrudimský and Čáslavský were merged into Posázavsko, OK
Bechyňský a Prácheňský were merged into "Jihočesko", maybe divide it? Jihočesko is fairly big.

Moravia was divided into 5 Krajs, which perfectly fits PC provinces.

Posázavsko-> Posázaví

Grammar:
Diacritics were not used in 14th century
Some locations had German majority and can have German names. E.g. Ústí nad Labem->Außig

Resources:
Jihlava: Silver (mining stops in 16th century, rgo sould switch perhaps to wool)

Special mechanics:
Cheb is a vassal (free city), you have to buy it from the empire. Historically it was bought in 1348 for the price of 10 tons of silver.
In 1378 silver mines in Jihlava are damage by flooding
In 1512 silver is found in Jáchymov
Silver mining in general should be very important. It allows the country to overcome its geographic limitations until it runs out.

Sources
Map for 17th century divisions
 

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Do you guys have any "fixed" limits for a location size, or do you just eyeball it based on how dense you feel the region should be? Similarly, what are the upper/lower numbers for locations per province/area, if you have any established?
We have a flexible approach to location size, with a lower limit of around 100 pixels; and then a rule of thumb that a location can be more than 3 times the size of a neighboring one, to ensure that there's a smooth-enough transition from a more-dense to less-dense regions.

I already mentioned in another post that for provinces, the accepted threshold is usually 3-10 locations, with the standard usually being 4-6, although they're also flexible limits.
 
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Does the HRE have mechanics to fight or contain nations that become too powerful or does that is simply handled by coalitions?
That is handled by coalitions, but there will be some internal HRE features, OFC.
 
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The Schwaz silver mines were famous enough to get their own event in EU4. Now we have Schwaz in the game and it produces...livestock? Or will there be an event to change this early 15th century?
There's an event.
 
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The Opavsko province should be in the Silesia area.
Also, the Moravian culture is a bit iffy, since there's no Moravian language, just dialects. Moravia had been also ruled by the Bohemian rulers for hundreds of years at that point.
Negative. Opava was divided from Moravia somewhere at the start of the game but it was not added to Silesia, It was its own thing. It was integrated into Silesia only during 17th century.
 
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I'm very interested how Brandenburg is gonna play economically. Historicly it was a fairly poor region and had the nickname "The Sandbox of Germany". On these maps we can see that they have a fairly large population but a ton of diffrent cultures. Will they be busy trying to convert these cultures before being able to get a good economie?
 
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View attachment 1168156

I have the feeling that this province of Bohemia is very lacking compared to other provinces around it. Pisek looks like the biggest location in the region.

While it was rather interesting area at that time. Most prominent of local nobles were Rosenbergs who blossomed under Luxembourgs, often were councilors and officials.
Southern Bohemia was Czech in lowlands, later colonized by Germans/Bavarians, they mixed a bit. Also settled by refugees fleeing religious persecution (Albigensians, Adamites).
Important trade route was called Zlatá stezka (Golden path?) which connected Passau with Prachatice and was used to import salt from Salzburg to Bohemia.

Southern Bohemia is also the birthplace of Jan Hus (*1370), who sparked (pun intended) Bohemian Reformation and Hussite wars...which might soon do away with that monotonous religious map (if Hussite uprising is implemented).

Rosenbergs invested heavily in development and strived to forge dukedom of sorts, which happened (nominally) much much later in 1628 when their glory already faded and their land was bought by Hans Ulrich von Eggenberg. Might be interesting playthrough if Rosenbergs are represented.
 
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Why isn't Treviso in the H.R.E.?
I asked it this week to the content designers who were in charge of the HRE borders, as I also wanted to know if it was WAD, and they told me that apparently Treviso was not considered part of it in the 14th century.

Although I have to say the borders of the Imperial territory in Italy are not the clearest; I had to do some research of Trieste as well, and it was quite difficult to figure out what was going on there in 1337.
 
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Few thoughts and questions from first impressaion:

1) Change Celje RGO from Wheat to Lumber or maybe Lead/Tin, sincethe area is mostly rugged hills covered with woods and forests.

2) Those low population numbers cant be possibly historically accurate. Still WiP?

3) Any wars or other diplomatic relations active at the game start?

4) Do different dynasties have their possibility for inheritance set up at game start?
1. We'll check.
2. We'll check.
3. It might be, although we have to review this.
4. For the Imperial Crown? No, that's handled through mechanics.
 
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Some suggestions for the naming of places in Salzburg (and adjacent areas):
  • The location "Sankt Johann in Tirol" is misnamed, Sankt Johann in Tirol is a town in Tirol (yes, not very imaginative), the town in Salzburg is called "Sankt Johann im Pongau"
  • The location "Bad Hofgastein" could be renamed "Gasteinertal"/"Gastein Valley" as it encompasses Bad Hofgastein, Bad Gastein and Dorfgastein, but the current name is not a mistake per se
  • The province "Lungau" seems to be misnamed aswell: Lungau is the name of the region around the town of Tamsweg and has always been part of Salzburg (well, ever since Salzburg became independent from Bavaria that is). Instead of "Lungau" the province could be named "Murtal"/"Mur Valley" or "Oberes Murtal"/"Upper Mur Valley" as the Mur river is the defining geographical feature in this area.
  • Also the names of the locations "Murau" and "Oberwölz" seem like they should be flipped or the locations reshaped (Muarau is closer to Tamsweg than Oberwölz is), though I am not quite sure about what you were going for there.
Other than that, the surrounding places seem to me as though they are named appropriately: Great job!

I'd also like to support everthing Palando was saying about Austria and Bavaria (I'm sure the other stuff is also accurate, I just can't confirm it independently).
 
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@Pavía
These screenshots were created long before working on #4 Tinto Maps Feedback?
Poland rework is being done in a different branch to the main one, from which I've taken the screenshots two days ago (that's a standard software working method).
 
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