• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
  • 175Love
  • 119Like
  • 4Haha
  • 4
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:
Is it not enough with the HRE and the Catholic Church, that you already want even more wonky institutions in Germany? :p

I don't think we have any more IOs for the first two ages, but then things may spice up when the Age of Reformation and certain Saxonian priest appear...
That sounds fun, so can I assume that both the Hansa and the Swiss Confederation are some of those unlanded countries you guys previously mentioned?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Can the Emperor protect the Empire from powerful countries like Hungary, France and Naples? The Emperor seems so weak, the empire is so decentralized, I hope it's not too easy for such countries to invade the empire and conquer region after region...
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
All subservient to the Duke/King in Prague. Moravia was an autonomous entity separate from Bohemia proper all the way until 1939 but the Slavs living there were always Czechs, not some separate Moravian people.

You're speaking like those "completely separate tribes" didn't speak pretty much the exact same language. Note how Slavic languages even today are much closer to each other than those in other language families, especially the West Slavic languages. Even Czech and Polish are intelligible if you rewrite the Polish diphthongs as the Czech letters or vice-versa.

Take for example the Hussite faith, which was mostly widespread among Czechs. The people in Moravia also converted to it and towns like Brno and Olomouc were important centres of Hussite activity. Jan Hus reformed the Czech writing system, which was also used in Moravia. Clearly the two regions were extremely similar if Moravia mirrored all the cultural events happening in Bohemia. The division of the two was purely feudal.
You are incorrect.

Moravians did not even come to these lands together with Bohemians. Moravians likely came to Pannonia, with Slovaks and other Slavs, and then settled Moravia.
Whereas Bohemians came to Bohemia from Poland.

So yes, they were seperate people, and only got to the current state over time.

Having Moravian as a seperate culture is a completely valid choice.
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Treviso was not considered part of it in the 14th century.
Weird, I thought you guys purposefully didn't add it to makes things easier for Venice since they conquered it in 1339 from Verona in the same war that some of us pointed out should be a thing at the start, but I guess I was wrong
 
- The location of Oberndorf is owned by Hohenberg but it wasn't owned by the Hohenberg dynasty until 1371/1374 when the impoverished Teck dynasty sold their possessions to the Hohenbergs. I think you should add Teck as a new tag and let them own Oberndorf.
- The counts of Calw became extinct in 1262 and their possessions were inheritated by the Tübingen dynasty (which rules the Böbingen tag). I think you should remove the Calw tag and let the location of Calw be owned by Böbingen. Böbingen should be renamed to Tübingen as it was the count palatinate of Tübingen.
- The location of Vaihingen is owned by the Öttingen tag but I couldn't find a relation between the Öttingen dynasty and the place of vaihingen. The castle of Vaihingen was owned by the Vaihingen dynasty - a cadet branch of the extinct Calw dynasty - until around 1364 when it was inheritated by Württemberg. I think you should add a new tag Vaihingen for them. EDIT: Vaihingen was sold to Öttingen in 1334 so the setup is correct.
- The tag of Uffenheim represents the Hohenlohe dynasty. The naming is a bit weird in my opinion as Uffenheim wasn't even a city in 1337, yet a residence of the Hohenlohe dynasty. I think you should rename the Uffenheim tag to Hohenlohe.
- The Offenburg location is pretty big considering it was only a Free City. I think you could easily split the location into half.
- The location of Hof is owned by the Hof tag ruled by the Hof dynasty. I don't know who this tag is supposed to represent but Hof itself belonged to the Reuß dynasty (who you split into the Gera and Plauen dynasties). Not sure if the Hof dynasty is a another cadet branch of them considering they named all male sons "Heinrich".
 
Last edited:
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I asked it this week to the content designers who were in charge of the HRE borders, as I also wanted to know if it was WAD, and they told me that apparently Treviso was not considered part of it in the 14th century.

Although I have to say the borders of the Imperial territory in Italy are not the clearest; I had to do some research of Trieste as well, and it was quite difficult to figure out what was going on there in 1337.
I hope that my research will help even more with this. ;)
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Even more obscure was the situation around the Mond- and Attersee. The former was owned by Bavaria until the Bavarian unification in the early 16th century, whereas the other was held by the Bishopric of Bamberg until it was bought by the Habsburg. There is potential to display both in the game but then it would not be possible to have Hallstatt as a separate province from Gmunden.
I think the split of Mondsee and Attersee would be good, but losing Hallstatt would be quite sad, as it was a significant town in its own right
 
You are incorrect.

Moravians did not even come to these lands together with Bohemians. Moravians likely came to Pannonia, with Slovaks and other Slavs, and then settled Moravia.
Whereas Bohemians came to Bohemia from Poland.

So yes, they were seperate people, and only got to the current state over time.
I don't think 6th century migration patterns are a good basis for 1337 cultural divisions. Not to mention that said tribes all spoke some form of proto-Slavic and could all understand each other. Nothing I said is incorrect.
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Tyrolean here with some input regarding specifically North Tyrol. There's a lot I like. Awesome to see so many locations but here's just a couple of suggestions I want to make.

In Terms of locations: Many are very well represented and I'm aware that there's a lot of considerations you guys have to make in terms of scale and many other factors but definately the Wörgl location has to be renamed because it's completely wrong. Irl Wörgl is actually roughly between your Schwaz and Kufstein Location. The Wörgl location in your map is kind of akward. In my opionion it could be merged or potentially even made a wasteland because it's mostly mountains. Whatever you decide it should not be called Wörgl. Generally I'd say the rest of the locations and names are acceptable although they might be improved. I think Galtür could be Landeck instead. I saw someone suggest Kufstein to be Rattenberg and Kitzbühel to become Kufstein. Either version yours or his are ok in my opinion.

Resources: Generally fine BUT there's one BIG PROBLEM: Schwaz absolutely has to have Silver instead of Livestock. The mine there was one of the most significant producers of Silver in Europe for about 200 years in the 15/16 century. The amount of Silver there is so vast that there's still a lot left today, however it's not being exploited anymore because Silver has become to "cheap" to mine it there and make a profit. If you discard everything else in this post, that's ok but the change to Silver is a must.

Provinces: So there's Oberinntal, Unterinntal, Zillertal and Kufstein there. While again, I get compromises in terms of scale vs geography the naming of these is a little akward. One thing first up. I would suggest renaming Oberinntal to Oberland and Unterinntal to Unterland. These naming conventions are much more common. Now Where your Unterinntal is, that area, since it's right in the middle is usually considered neither Ober nor Unterinntal and Kufstein is part of the Unterinntal irl. I'd say you could rename your Unterinntal province to Innsbruck Land, and your Kufstein province to Unterland. So then it would be: Oberland, Innsbruck Land, Unterland (and Zillertal below) but if you decide to leave it as is it's not the end of the world.

Topography: The final thing I would like to add is something that's very important to me and that is the topic of impassable terrain. In your map the only wastelands/impassable terrain is towards the South but there's zero on the northern border of North Tyrol/Bavaria. That is not how it is in reality at all. Almost the entirety of the northern border is completely impassable except for a handful of passes. You can imagine the Inn Valley basically like a long, bent tube going from West to North East, only allowing passage north in a few places. Now here's the issue. I get that again because of scale most but not all of the locations have a pass that allows passage to the north and so you decides to have the entirety of the norther border passable but here's my suggestion: Add at least a thin strip of impassable terrain between the border of the Innsbruck and Garmisch location. There's not one pass in the entire "location" and it's not possible to cross. If you can you could make thin strips of wasteland along most of the border and only leave out visually enlarged versions of the irl passes. I'll add my crude drawing down below.

Red is my suggestions for impassable terrain (broadly, sry for the terrible doodle)
Purple is two important passes. 1 = Zirl to Mittenwald, the Via Claudia Augusta went through there, 2 = Achenpass
Yelleow is the Innvalley itself bending up north and leaving the alps outwards to Rosenheim. Easiest, widest and flattest path.

Thank you for reading. I hope it wasn't a waste of time but some decent input for you.

I agree with my Tirolian friend here, ... there needs to be more impassable land, because:

2024-06-27 16_38_17-David - TeamViewer.jpg


You just dont cross with an Army , Carts and Cannons simply north into Bavaria. Don't underestimate the Northern-Chain.
Historically we can orient us here at the Via Imperii Source: (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Imperii)
In this historical map (north is down) from 1500 there were basically three ways to enter Tyrol (two in the north, one in the south) :
ViaImperii.png

Northeren Road access are via Kuffstein and over Seefeld to get into Bavaria. The third road access is south over the Brenner Pass towards Italy.

putting this into your location map (with north up) it would look like this:
ViaImperii2.png


  • Red-Marking: i sugest "impassable" crossing between Locations ... as your army is going to have a very very hard time when trying to cross.
  • Orange-Marking: .. is seasonal walkable. See these are passes who only are crossable in Summer. Also back in the 1400s there were no roads there... only skinny foodpaths. So good luck carrying your heavy cannons by hand on a shaky passway where one wrong step will let you fall in your demise. :)
    And thats Summer, winter is even worse... no change to cross in winter, you d loose a quater of your army in the snow up there... hmm ... i dont suppose you have something like "seasonal impassable land"?

But if not orange, ... definitly pls consider making the red marked location borders impassable. They always are impassable. :)

Great HRE map otherwhise, i love it :)
 
Last edited:
  • 26Like
  • 7
  • 3
  • 2Love
Reactions:
I know that this is technically not the scope of this post, but why is the frisian freedom represented as one country? As far as I know at this time there was no central government for a long time. The region was comprised of independently organised communities (around the time of the start of the game it changed from democratically organised communities to chiefdoms) that sent representatives to an annual meeting for regional questions. But these meetings seem to far from anything resembling a central authority and it is also unclear if they were even still held in 1336 and later.
We think that this is the best way to portray this kind of semi-autonomous community (as let's say, one tag per location wouldn't really represent the situation, either).
 
  • 34Like
  • 4
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
The Frisian Freedom is a bit weird as historically it wasn’t a country so much as a region which remained organized around traditional tribal structures rather than Carolingian feudalism like the rest of the HRE. It might be more accurate to have it as a series of ULMs, all of which are peasant republics, instead of a single tag.

The trade zones are a bit weird, with Köln and Praha not going as far south as I imagine they ought to. Venice and Genoa passing over the alps is weird, especially for Köln where the Rhine should provide a passage all the way into Switzerland. Maybe the calculations need to be adjusted? Navigable rivers in particular should be absolutely busted for trade zone propagation.

Some historical borders aren’t possible from the looks of things, namely Prussian Silesia. Opava is the main problem and should probably be split in two. Kladsko looks a bit funny too and IMO is worth tweaking to produce an accurate Prussian (or modern Polish) border, since it won’t effect the location or province in any other situation.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
View attachment 1167612
I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zelland, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…
The Electorate of Cologne should not control both sides of the Rhine river
1722008850622.png

1722008879384.png

Please make two locations out of the Köln location following the Rhine River and swap ownership between Berg and Cologne for a few locations (Bonn and part of Köln on the other side of the river)

1722008783453.png
1722008603094.png
1722008643833.png
1722008430351.png


None of the borders are followed from my examples
 
Last edited:
  • 6Like
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
That sounds fun, so can I assume that both the Hansa and the Swiss Confederation are some of those unlanded countries you guys previously mentioned?
The Swiss Confederation will most likely be an IO comprising several landed cantons. The Hansa is a different thing, of which @Johan will talk about at some point.
 
  • 44Like
  • 9Love
  • 3
Reactions:
Can the Emperor protect the Empire from powerful countries like Hungary, France and Naples? The Emperor seems so weak, the empire is so decentralized, I hope it's not too easy for such countries to invade the empire and conquer region after region...
It's the idea, yes. But being the Emperor in PC will be much more challenging than in EU4.
 
  • 48Like
  • 9Love
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions:
I really like the detailed provinces in Germany. Two points about eastern Switzerland:

1. Werdenberg is an odd province, it did not had a lot of importance (and still does not today).
2. I believe the peasent republic of Appenzell would be a great/better addition. They fought a lot against Austria/Habsburgs in battles with multiple thousand participants which was quite a lot in that time. They conquered the western side of the rhine from Austria for Switzerland.
You can find it in Wikipedia under „Appenzell Wars“ 1400-1430.
 
  • 4Like
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
  • 1
Reactions: