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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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Is it not enough with the HRE and the Catholic Church, that you already want even more wonky institutions in Germany? :p

I don't think we have any more IOs for the first two ages, but then things may spice up when the Age of Reformation and certain Saxonian priest appear...
Should the Swiss Confederation not be an IO, or at least appear through an event at some point? If I remember correctly, there was already some sort of alliance between some cantons in 1337.
 
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The naming conventions for the provinces in Northern Germany are really bad and the areas are a complete disaster both in setup and naming.

The density of locations is obviously incredible.
 
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I already asked this in the Italian feedback post but since it's kinda part of the HRE I'll ask again, can you guys split Slovenia in 2 areas with Istria? It will make for a better visual rappresentation of the place and makes sense from an historical point of view since it was a separate county of the Austrian empire in this timeframe and if it too small then make a new area with Friul(Friuli and Istria)
1000019175.jpg
 
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View attachment 1168156

I have the feeling that this province of Bohemia is very lacking compared to other provinces around it. Pisek looks like the biggest location in the region.
I agree and would either add Blatná or Týn (Tejn :p) nad Vltavou. I would prefer the former, as it was far more important (see its early castle).

Anoher possibility would be to take something from Prácheň, too, and add Strakonice which would be even more relevant as seat of a major noble family.

Where is Hohenzollern btw? I cant find them on the map. Did they exist by this time?
Johan II von Hohenzollern is Count of Anbasch in 1337, ruling over 4/5 locations. And tere's content that would make them possible to rule over Brandenburg, yes.
It should be called Burgraviate Nürnberg, though ;). There's also more than enough room to also include Hechingen with a separate Zollern tag.

"Ansbach" should rather be called Burgraviate Nürnberg in 1337. The Hohenzollern sold the Burgraves' Castle in 1427 which de-facto ended the existence of the Burgraviate, but they still used this hollow title thereafter. Moreover, Ansbach and Kulmbach(-Bayreuth) came only into existence after the inheritance was split in 1398.
Lands of the Czech Crown fix (WIP)

Locations:
Tábor was founded by hussites, Soběslav was the most important city there in early modern era
Pernštejn->Doubravnický Újezd or shortly Doubravník

Provinces:
Posázavsko-> Posázaví

Grammar:
Diacritics were not used in 14th century
Some locations had German majority and can have German names. E.g. Kutná Hora->Kuttenberg

Special mechanics:
Cheb is a vassal (free city), you have to buy it from the empire. Historically it was bought in 1348 for the price of 10 tons of silver.
I would rather replace Tábor with Jindřichův Hradec. The Bohemian crown needs some more flak from the Vítkovci :p

Also John the Blind bought Eger / Cheb in 1322. 1348 was the year Charles IV became HREmperor.

The Oberrhein area being exclsuively right of the Rhine makes little sense, if its gonna keep its name it should be both left and right of the Rhine.

View attachment 1168162
The Speyer location seems quite large, you could split out a Haardt location to its east, since the actual free city of Speyer was quite a lot smaller.
Kaiserslautern should not be owned by Trier but rather probably by Bohemia or Leiningen if you dont want that and should also be wooded.
Meanwhile deforestation on the Upper Rhine was long under way, atleast Worms should be grasslands and Darmstadt, Bensheim and Heidelberg should be wooded rather than forested.
Bruchsal actually wasn't the capital of Speyer in 1337, as it was Udenheim (later renamed to Philippsburg). I would also rather include Maulbronn (the Swabians need their Maultaschen ;) ) which was subservient to the Palatinate since 1325.
Yeah, Murau and Oberwölz seem to be swapped and misshapen
This is why I would suggest this and give Oberwölz to Freising
1722009376195.png

- The location of Oberndorf is owned by Hohenberg but it wasn't owned by the Hohenberg dynasty until 1371/1374 when the impoverished Teck dynasty sold their possessions to the Hohenbergs. I think you should add Teck as a new tag and let them own Oberndorf.
- The counts of Calw became extinct in 1262 and their possessions were inheritated by the Tübingen dynasty (which rules the Böbingen tag). I think you should remove the Calw tag and let the location of Calw be owned by Böbingen. Böbingen should be renamed to Tübingen as it was the count palatinate of Tübingen.
- The location of Vaihingen is owned by the Öttingen tag but I couldn't find a relation between the Öttingen dynasty and the place of vaihingen. The castle of Vaihingen was owned by the Vaihingen dynasty - a cadet branch of the extinct Calw dynasty - until around 1364 when it was inheritated by Württemberg. I think you should add a new tag Vaihingen for them.
- The tag of Uffenheim represents the Hohenlohe dynasty. The naming is a bit weird in my opinion as Uffenheim wasn't even a city in 1337, yet a residence of the Hohenlohe dynasty. I think you should rename the Uffenheim tag to Hohenlohe.
- The Offenburg location is pretty big considering it was only a Free City. I think you could easily split the location into half.
- The location of Hof is owned by the Hof tag ruled by the Hof dynasty. I don't know who this tag is supposed to represent but Hof itself belonged to the Reuß dynasty (who you split into the Gera and Plauen dynasties). Not sure if the Hof dynasty is a another cadet branch of them considering they named all male sons "Heinrich".
Baden sold Vaihingen in 1334 to Öttingen who in turn sold it in 1339 to Württemberg.

I agree that they should be called Hohenlohe and not Uffenheim.


In general:
I couldn't find a map closer to the start date for the County of Württemberg who became the dominant power at the centre of Swabia during the game's time period. The following map is from 1442, but several territories were gained after 1337.


1716744958764.png



In 1337 the Counts of Württemberg owned:
Centre (vicinity of Stuttgart): Stuttgart, Cannstatt, Waiblingen, Schorrndorf, Leonberg, Asperg and Marktgröningen.
East: Göppingen
South-east: Urach, Neuffen, Nürtingen, Münsingen, Sigmaringen (was lost again in 1399) and Grötzingen (which was purchased in 1337).
North: Brackenheim, Backnang and Marbach
South: Rosenfeld
West: Dornstetten and Neuenbürg
Alsace: Horbourg-Wihr and Riquewihr (not shown in the map)

They expanded in the following years:
1339 - County of Vaihingen (Enz)
1340 - Güglingen
1342 - County Palatine of Tübingen with Böblingen, Herrenberg, Sindelfingen and Tübingen
1357 - Großbottwar
1363 - County of Nagold
1364 - County of Calw with Wildbad and Zavelstein
1367 - Ebingen (from Hohenberg)
1380 - Dornhan (from Teck) and Kleingartach (from Baden)
1386 - Duchy of Teck with Kirchheim unter Teck
1403 - Balingen (from Zollern)
1416 - Oberndorf

Calw, Tübingen (called Böblingen in the game) and Vaihingen (Öttingen) are all already represented as independent tags.
Otherwise, based on the above dates, I would not give them their (current) southern exclave but give it to Hohenberg, as they owned only a small strip of land around Rosenfeld there.


I think the split of Mondsee and Attersee would be good, but losing Hallstatt would be quite sad, as it was a significant town in its own right
There actually is no Hallstatt province and it's all Gmunden. I wrote this before I saw the detailed map.
 
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8yaasq.jpg
Hello again, I'm back.
I already wrote this way back in the first tinto maps but as that one was for the Benelux, I again want to advocate for something about the Dutchy Mark.

First of all, Altena was (and still is) the one town with a castle in this location (Burg Altena), therefore I can understand why you took this town when there are larger ones and more important ones in the vicinity.
But there are also two towns/a small city not far from Altena, which were somewhat important for the Mark, probably even more important than Altena. Those were Iserlohn and Hemer. And Iserlohn especially, as the name literally translates to "Iron Forest", and this iron was mined there since the middle ages. (The "Mine" is still there, it's called "Felsenmeer" and it's really cool). To add to that, it also had a strong metal industry and (if I remember correctly) they were specialists in making chainmail, as a chainmail shirt from Iserlohn is even displayed in the Tower of London.

(also, not-so-small-edit: iserlohn was for a long time known for its metalworking, and it became even richer than Dortmund. Until the railroad came, somewhen in the middle of the 19th century, IIRC, there was an offer proposed to Iserlohn to get a Railroad. The Major refused, so Dortmund got the Railroad and, as Iserlohn didn't have any good methods to transport their goods, it fell from its status.)

Edit 2: I know I'm late, but I just remembered that there is terrain and Altena is marked as Flatland. But the location is part of the "Sauerland", a small mountainous/hilly area which is in parts heavily forested. The location Altena would be in the western end of the Area, Olpe, Arnsberg, Meschede and Brilon are part of it as well. Apparently the name is known as Suderlande since 1266 and in the following century it got traction. In this time it changed to Sauerland, but some local nobility held onto the first name until the 16th century. It was mostly split in the Dutchy Mark and westphalia. In the 17th and 18th century, Westphalia and the Sauerland in particular gained an increasingly bad reputation. The Sauerland regions of Cologne in particular were considered backward and poor, so the attachment to the term went away, and in the industrially up-and-coming Sauerland of the Dutchy Mark, the term Süderland was preferred.
I don't know if this region is important enough to be implemented, but it's a neat bit of information.
 
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AUSTRIA FEEDBACK (and a little bit of Bavaria feedback too)

As an Austrian historian I noticed some things that need to be addressed in my opinion:

Area names: "Oberösterreich" (Upper Austria) uses the German name, while "Niederösterreich" (Lower Austria) uses the English name, which is strange. Since it seems that only English names are going to be used for provinces, I suggest using "Upper Austria". However, I have another suggestion: in the middle ages up until the early 20th century (!) Oberösterreich (Upper Austria) was called "Österreich ob der Enns" (= "Austria above the Enns", the Enns is a river) and Niederösterreich (Lower Austria) was called "Österreich unter der Enns" ("Austria below the Enns"), so if you want to reflect the naming conventions of the time you should use these terms. (Sources: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschichte_Oberösterreichs#Österreich_ob_der_Enns)

Province names: "Mühlviadl" is written in dialect (I assume because the medieval document you got that from was also written in dialect) and should be named Mühlviertel. Österreich ob der Enns was devided into for quarters (Viertel = quarter) in the late 15th century, so the name is kind of anachronistic but I cant think of a better alternative so the name is fine. The province next to it "Grafschaft" is weird, however, because Grafschaft literally just translates to earldom. It should either be named "Innbaiern" or "Innbayern". (Sources: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innviertel#Name; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mühlviertel#15._und_16._Jahrhundert). I would also rename "South East Tirol" into just Osttirol (East Tyrol) and "South West Tirol" into Südtirol (South Tyrol) because you are mixing German and English again and it fits better.

Culture names: Splitting the Bavarian cultures (= peoples who speak the Bavarian dialect) makes sense, however, it is strange that one is named after a geographical feature (= the Danube) and one after a direction (= southern). I suggest either changing Southern Bavarian to Alpine Bavarian or even better leaving Southern Bavarian as it is and changing Upper Palatine to Northern Bavarian and Danube Bavarian to Central Bavarian (Source: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...#/media/File:Austro_Bavarian_Languages-01.png)

Markets: While there was certainly a lot of trade between Italy and the HRE, seeing the Italian markets stretching across the Alps all the way into Oberbayern is kind of an exaggeration. I suggest adding another market in the soutern HRE with a market centre in Augsburg (or Regensburg or Nürnberg). I am not sure which one of these cities was the biggest trading hub, but they were all certainly important trade centers (Regensburg was probably still the biggest at game start but was soon replaced by Augsburg).

Material: Steiermark (Styria) is and was an important wine-growing area, so it is strange to not see a single province in Steiermark with wine as a resource. I suggest replacing at least on wool resource with wine.
 
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Please don't make regions like "Nordrhein-Westfalen" oder "Rheinland-Pfalz", instead stay with either "Bergisches Land" or "Moselland" or Rheinland, Pfalz, Westfalen, Ostfalen (!) and Engern. These are true historical regions. The two first ones are those artificial stuff which is a result from the Second World War.
 
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The Topograpy in Bavaria is a mess...
Its way too flat for me as a Bavarian to not complain!
There need to be more Hills (for forts of course ;) )
And also some more Mountains in Baden and on the Chech border.
I also dont want to attach millions of reference Pictures showing that its definately not Flat where i live so maybe look up some pictures of franconia and upper bavaria and you´ll see what i mean.

Another Thing depending Culture...
I dont know how it was back then, but Austrian should be different to Bavarian and naming Tyrolian South Bavarian seems like an Insult.
At least i know that if you put a Man from Tyrol and an Upper Bavarian Person in the Same Room they dont understand Shit because the Accents are so extremely different.
I think if it wont get changed it would at least be nice that Austrian detatches from Bavarian after 100-200 Years.

Anyway Great Map
top.jpg
Topography.png
 
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Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
View attachment 1167612
I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zelland, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
View attachment 1167613
The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
View attachment 1167615
We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
View attachment 1167616
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
View attachment 1167621
Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
View attachment 1167622
Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
View attachment 1167623
View attachment 1167624
View attachment 1167625
Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
View attachment 1167626
Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
View attachment 1167629
Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1167630
Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
View attachment 1167632
The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
View attachment 1167633
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!

I get emotional reading these tinto talks. EU4 has been apart of my life since highschool now I’m 28. I’ve played through ups and down, relationships and friendships gained and lost, buying my first home, marriage and both of my daughters being born. No other game has been so consistently played and loved for such a time as this. Gaming has taken more of a backseat over past few years. Perhaps my interest is waning or arguably games are changing somehow, the awe is gone for me when firing up a new title. But always time for a paradox game. From the bottom of my heart I want to thank the whole team for such dedication to PC, the love poured in is so clear. I can see it’s not just another game being developed but a passion piece for the next decade. The way you’ve included the community in this shows the lengths you guys will go to make this an even greater and long lasting game that will have a special place in our lives for years to come. ❤
 
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We think that this is the best way to portray this kind of semi-autonomous community (as let's say, one tag per location wouldn't really represent the situation, either).
I'd assume that that's where IOs would come in, no? Unless I'm totally mistaken in my understanding of the situation, this seems like to sort of situation which the mechanic was designed for.
 
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We think that this is the best way to portray this kind of semi-autonomous community (as let's say, one tag per location wouldn't really represent the situation, either).
Will the nature of these communities then at least be shown by some kind of government type or events or something?
And will it then be possible to naturally get to play for example the county of east frisia?
 
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Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
View attachment 1167612
I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zelland, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
View attachment 1167613
The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
View attachment 1167615
We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
View attachment 1167616
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
View attachment 1167621
Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
View attachment 1167622
Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
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Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
View attachment 1167626
Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
View attachment 1167629
Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1167630
Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
View attachment 1167632
The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
View attachment 1167633
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
I think the location of Coblenz should be full on the left side of the river, right side should be a separate location called Erenbreitstein
1722009877784.png


It is better to merge Coblenz with Mayen or Simmern

1722009745542.png
 
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A couple of things for the Holstein area:

  • 1. To fit in more, the other provinces in Holstein, the name “Stormarn Gau” should be changed to “Hamburg”. All the other Provinces are named after their dominating city. Historically, the Gau was reduced in size to the "Stormarn"-Location in 1322, with the Alster as its western border.
    https://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/wappen-und-geschichte/index.html
    I found no reference in English.


  • 2. The northern Part of the “Heide”-location should be given to the “Husum”-Location. The northern border of Dietmarschen historically, was the Eider.
    Eider_Verlauf.png


  • 3. The “Hamburg”-Location should be split into “Pinneberg” and “Hamburg” and the river Elbe should move a bit more inland, so that the “Hamburg”-Location still has a harbor.
    Hamburg_Pinneberg_Location.png

    (Maybe the “Hamburg”-Location should be made a bit bigger…)Pinneberg should be given to a new tag with the name "Holstein-Pinneberg", it feels wrong that you have the other two territories of the House of Schaumburg in Holstein already but are missing the third one.
    Herzogtum_Sachsen_Lauenburg_1400.PNG

    I again have no English reference, other than Wikipedia. Only books in German, for which I also found no online Archive
 
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The Swiss Confederation will most likely be an IO comprising several landed cantons. The Hansa is a different thing, of which @Johan will talk about at some point.
Speaking of Swiss Confederation. If we centralize the confederation, will we be able to Play as the “Federal State” of these members? As a Sort of Landless Country, Not own land directly but through the Federal States/Cantons/Provinces giving us a portion of their Income, Manpower and etc while those States/Cantons/Provinces own the land and have their own governments?

This would help represent the current state of the Swiss confederation, but also the Dutch Republic which was 7 Provinces (with their own governments) but united under one Federal State.
Or USA, where the States have their own land, laws, governments and rulers but are subject to the Federal Government of the United States
 
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AUSTRIA FEEDBACK (and a little bit of Bavaria feedback too)

As an Austrian historian I noticed some things that need to be addressed in my opinion:

Area names: "Oberösterreich" (Upper Austria) uses the German name, while "Niederösterreich" (Lower Austria) uses the English name, which is strange. Since Oberbayern and Niederbayern are using the German names as well, it suggest using the German name for Niederösterreich (Lower Austria) as well. However, I have another suggestion: in the middle ages up until the early 20th century (!) Oberösterreich (Upper Austria) was called "Österreich ob der Enns" (= Austria above the Enns, which is a river) and Niederösterreich (Lower Austria) was called "Österreich unter der Enns" (Austria below the Enns), so if you want to reflect the naming conventions of the time you should use these terms. (Sources: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschichte_Oberösterreichs#Österreich_ob_der_Enns)

Province names: "Mühlviadl" is written in dialect (I assume because the medieval document you got that from was also written in dialect) and should be named Mühlviertel. Österreich ob der Enns was devided into for quarters (Viertel = quarter) in the late 15th century, so the name is kind of anachronistic but I cant think of a better alternative so the name is fine. The province next to it "Grafschaft" is weird, however, because Grafschaft literally just translates to earldom. It should either be named "Innbaiern" or "Innbayern". (Sources: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innviertel#Name; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mühlviertel#15._und_16._Jahrhundert). I would also rename "South East Tirol" into just Osttirol (East Tyrol) and "South West Tirol" into Südtirol (South Tyrol) because you are mixing German and English again and it fits better.

Culture names: Splitting the Bavarian cultures (= peoples who speak the Bavarian dialect) in two makes sense, however, it is strange that one is named after a geographical feature (= the Danube) and one after a direction (= southern). I suggest changing Southern Bavarian to Alpine Bavarian.

Markets: While there was certainly a lot of trade between Italy and the HRE, seeing the Italian markets stretching across the Alps all the way into Oberbayern is kind of an exaggeration. I suggest adding another market in the soutern HRE with a market centre in Augsburg (or Regensburg or Nürnberg). I am not sure which one of these cities was the biggest trading hub, but they were all certainly important trade centers (Regensburg was probably still the biggest at game start but was soon replaced by Augsburg).

Material: Steiermark (Styria) is and was an important wine-growing area, so it is strange to not see a single province in Steiermark with wine as a resource. It suggest replacing at least on wool resource with wine.
I wouldn't mind having (Austro-)Bavarian dynamic province names. Minga, Wean, Soizbuag, Rengschbuag and Innschbruck sound so much better.

Bavarian was actually split into three cultures:
Northern Bavarian called Upper Palatine.
Danube Bavarian which is actually also a name used for this (the other is Central Bavarian = "Mittelbairisch").
Southern Bavarian

So actually Upper Palatine should just be changed to Northern Bavarian to make it all consistent.

1722010176239.png
 
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@Pavía
I wonder if there will also be a special estates within the Holy Roman Empire?
In Slovenian lands, at the beginning of the game, the Kosezi (Edlinger) were also present, which somehow has its own nobility, which has the attributes of the bourgeoisie and the free farmers. It may not be the only estate that has been categorized differently within the HRE.