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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
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Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
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Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
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The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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Shouldn't the Ruhr, Rhineland, Saar, and Wallonia areas have more coal? It looks like they currently have none except for one in Wallonia.
Quoted from here:
  • Saarland (1371): Saarbrücken, Merzig
  • Ruhr (1370): Essen, Dortmund
  • Osnabrück (15th/16th century): Osnabrück (fiber if no coal from the start)
  • 17th and 18th century expansion of coal production: Hamm, Recklinghausen, Roermond (Netherlands), Zwickau
At the start of the game, coal only really makes sense in the Saarland and Ruhr regions and production wasn't that prominent until the last centuries of the game's time period. It's similar for Wallonia, where the Liège area has notoriety as the earliest significant coal producer in Europe (starting in the 13th century), but the big expansion of coal mining in Wallonia and French Flanders didn't happen until much later.
 
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It's similar for Wallonia, where the Liège area has notoriety as the earliest significant coal producer in Europe (starting in the 13th century), but the big expansion of coal mining in Wallonia and French Flanders didn't happen until much later.
In that case has anything been said about coal being added to Liège? I know lowlands is considered reviewed.
 
The province of Ticino should not be part of Lombardy but insted it should be part of a Swiss area since it was fully conquered during the Italian wars and has been part of it since then
Screenshot_20250130_095947_Chrome.jpg

The same could be done for the Valtellina since it was conquered at the same time by the Three leagues and it was part of it until the Napoleonic wars
Screenshot_20250130_100301_Chrome.jpg

Also since it has multiple languages spoken in it can you rename the province of Graubünden to Grisons?
 
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The province of Ticino should not be part of Lombardy but insted it should be part of a Swiss area since it was fully conquered during the Italian wars and has been part of it since then
View attachment 1249052
The same could be done for the Valtellina since it was conquered at the same time by the Three leagues and it was part of it until the Napoleonic wars
View attachment 1249051
Also since it has multiple languages spoken in it can you rename the province of Graubünden to Grisons?
The game starts in 1337, long before the wars with Milan.
I agree Graubünden should be Grisons.
 
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The game starts in 1337, long before the wars with Milan.
I agree Graubünden should be Grisons.
The conquest is not recent(the game lasts 500 years and 1837-1512=325) and they did say they are basing areas to historical divisions(just take a look at Austria), it's for the same reason why I think that Nice should be in Liguria.
That said I myself am not 100% sure of this as both provinces are more culturally and geographically close to Italy than the Germanic region/s and it would also make sense to keep it like this if we consided that Savoy is in the reagion of France despite it never being part of France in this time period(minus for the Napoleonic wars), I'm just presenting this fact to the devs which are the once who will decide which is more fitting.
 
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The conquest is not recent(the game lasts 500 years and 1837-1512=325) and they did say they are basing areas to historical divisions(just take a look at Austria), it's for the same reason why I think that Nice should be in Liguria.
That said I myself am not 100% sure of this as both provinces are more culturally and geographically close to Italy than the Germanic region/s and it would also make sense to keep it like this if we consided that Savoy is in the reagion of France despite it never being part of France in this time period(minus for the Napoleonic wars), I'm just presenting this fact to the devs which are the once who will decide which is more fitting.
They have stated that they are unhappy with the areas, and I'm hoping they get a rework since they're terribly anachronistic for the timeframe.
In my opinion they should be based on historical divisions, to take the region of Grisons as an example: at the time that part was called "raetia" (or various spelling variations), including the whole alpine rhine valley (and adjacent smaller valleys) and parts of the Lake Constance region, and that would be the most fitting area-divison there.
Similarly, what's now Ticino back then was considered part of the duchy of Milan.
 
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In my opinion they should be based on historical divisions, to take the region of Grisons as an example: at the time that part was called "raetia" (or various spelling variations), including the whole alpine rhine valley (and adjacent smaller valleys) and parts of the Lake Constance region, and that would be the most fitting area-divison there.
So it's just Switzerland during Roman times? Personally I'm fine with the "administrative divisions" as areas in game as a base, I think it's much better than using just geographical elements since there are too many and historically wasn't always the case like in the colonies, it's also much easier as you can use historical data
 
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So it's just Switzerland during Roman times? Personally I'm fine with the "administrative divisions" as areas in game as a base, I think it's much better than using just geographical elements since there are too many and historically wasn't always the case like in the colonies, it's also much easier as you can use historical data
1738245073422.png

By the late middle ages 'raetia' mostly refered to the bishopric of chur and the Romansch speaking lands (Vorarlberg and Grisons was still majority Romansch-speaking in 1337), and the exact borders weren't clearly defined.
Roughly speaking, the "Alte Orte" of modern Switzerland was what people called Switzerland, and the Romansch areas east of that was "Currezia", or "Raetia" - for example Copernicus' pupil was from Feldkirch, and he called himself "Rheticus" - meaning "from Raetia".
 
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Yep and comparing the posted country map with the map in the OP, we can preview a lot of changes already
germanychanges.png

Pretty much everything was changed, there's way too much to point to, but some random observations:
Wied and Katzenelnbogen were created on the right bank of the Rhine, Cologne and Berg now have their border defined by the Rhine.
Ansbach was given its historical borders west of Nuremberg, so Bamberg shrank a bit. Henneberg, Würzburg and Hohenlohe also look almost completely reworked.
Trier is a lot more fragmented.
Judging by the size of some of the city locations, it looks like the location density is going to be even higher!
 
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Yep and comparing the posted country map with the map in the OP, we can preview a lot of changes alreadyView attachment 1254436
Pretty much everything was changed, there's way too much to point to, but some random observations:
Wied and Katzenelnbogen were created on the right bank of the Rhine, Cologne and Berg now have their border defined by the Rhine.
Ansbach was given its historical borders west of Nuremberg, so Bamberg shrank a bit. Henneberg, Würzburg and Hohenlohe also look almost completely reworked.
Trier is a lot more fragmented.
Judging by the size of some of the city locations, it looks like the location density is going to be even higher!
ULM LIVES, and its smaller
1739573298590.png
 
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Yep and comparing the posted country map with the map in the OP, we can preview a lot of changes alreadyView attachment 1254436
Pretty much everything was changed, there's way too much to point to, but some random observations:
Wied and Katzenelnbogen were created on the right bank of the Rhine, Cologne and Berg now have their border defined by the Rhine.
Ansbach was given its historical borders west of Nuremberg, so Bamberg shrank a bit. Henneberg, Würzburg and Hohenlohe also look almost completely reworked.
Trier is a lot more fragmented.
Judging by the size of some of the city locations, it looks like the location density is going to be even higher!
For some reason I feel like the name placement on the map got worse, but beside that Alsace got a nice rework and it's nice to see the the Oder is sailable up to Stettin
 
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