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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

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Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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I think Austria is still one whole tag. The pictures are from Balkan Feedback, I sincerely hope that this is a temporary solution and that Carniola finally comes to life as its own area and that the entire area of Styria will be also reorganized into more historical provinces, because now it is sad to see.

View attachment 1254496View attachment 1254498View attachment 1254497
Yeah but if you look at the new map the name placement of Austria is different so maybe they have added something down there
 
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I also find it annoying that Carniola and Carinthia only have two provinces, while Salzburg, which is smaller, has three, and I seriously hope it doesn't stay that way.
 
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Yep and comparing the posted country map with the map in the OP, we can preview a lot of changes alreadyView attachment 1254436
Pretty much everything was changed, there's way too much to point to, but some random observations:
Wied and Katzenelnbogen were created on the right bank of the Rhine, Cologne and Berg now have their border defined by the Rhine.
Ansbach was given its historical borders west of Nuremberg, so Bamberg shrank a bit. Henneberg, Würzburg and Hohenlohe also look almost completely reworked.
Trier is a lot more fragmented.
Judging by the size of some of the city locations, it looks like the location density is going to be even higher!
Wow, Mecklenburg is completely changed, but does seem unfinished (Schwerin and Bützow were not under the same entity - Bützow was owned by the Bishopric of Schwerin and Schwerin itself by the County of Schwerin, which also controlled areas in the southwest, as seen in the original map).

The number of new locations just from the political map is enormous! Some of those are tiny, though. Looking forward to see the new subdivisions.
 
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Yep and comparing the posted country map with the map in the OP, we can preview a lot of changes alreadyView attachment 1254436
Pretty much everything was changed, there's way too much to point to, but some random observations:
Wied and Katzenelnbogen were created on the right bank of the Rhine, Cologne and Berg now have their border defined by the Rhine.
Ansbach was given its historical borders west of Nuremberg, so Bamberg shrank a bit. Henneberg, Würzburg and Hohenlohe also look almost completely reworked.
Trier is a lot more fragmented.
Judging by the size of some of the city locations, it looks like the location density is going to be even higher!
they still forgot Heligoland : (
 
Is Quedlinburg big enough to be on the map?
The sources are in German, so I unfortunately can't provide better sources, but Quedlinburg Abbey seems to have had a fairly substantial amount of land donations by 1337, according to Wikipedia. This is not me putting forth an argument per se but something to look into. I ask that someone who can read these sources verify whether or not Quedlinburg Abbey could be a tag. ^_^ I think it would be pretty cool to play as a princess-abbess lol
 
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I'm guessing that this map has already been posted, but just in case. I checked a couple of these to see if they were in the feedback (they were, although the iron blot in the Eifel mountains looks pretty big compared to the single location in the map). I don't have the patience to check all of them. @Mef - Sorry to tag you, but I know you did a goods map. Did you check this?

20250217_084442.jpg
 
I'm guessing that this map has already been posted, but just in case. I checked a couple of these to see if they were in the feedback (they were, although the iron blot in the Eifel mountains looks pretty big compared to the single location in the map). I don't have the patience to check all of them. @Mef - Sorry to tag you, but I know you did a goods map. Did you check this?

Yeah this map looks pretty good, although without spending too much time on it (there's the feedback thread to look at :p), I spot one important location missing, the copper in Eisleben/Mansfeld which was the main copper supplier for the metalworking city of Nuremberg.
What a map like this also can't really do is portray importance. Iron mining east of the Rhine with its many ironworking cities was more important than iron mining in the Eifel and Hunsrück
 
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@Pavía I have invested some time in research about the area in southern Thüringen to provide some recommandations, unfortunatly i cant insert links to my sources :(


1.) The location of Sonneberg should be changed to Saalfeld

Sonneberg was just a village with a small fortifaction in the time whilst Saalfeld was a trade center with imperial city rights and a major Benedictine imperial abby.

I would change the raw material within the location to stone or iron. I found german sources about iron mining and the Feengrotten were a shale mine in the middleages and later on. Also shale was massivly used as a construction material on all medival buildings in the area, so i think it would be the best match to use stone. I also had a chat with my barkeeper tonight who worked there as a tourist guide in his youth: Salt was also mined there, but it remains unclear to which extent and how long.
So i would call it a balancing desicion.

2.) Thus the country should be changed from Henneberg to Schwarzburg (It`s not a 100% precise, since parts of the location belonged to different counts, but i think it's the best match, since Schwarzburg aquired Saalfeld and the Castle of Ranis from the King around 1200 thanks to the efforts during the crusade.)

3.) The dynasty of Arnstadt should be changed to Schwarzburg

The Askanier ( Counts of Orlamünde ) had land in the area of the location. But Schwarzburg was clearly the dominant dynastie in the location who just aquired Rudolstadt which they used as a new capital and residence.

4.) Renaming the location Arnstadt to Rudolstadt (?) Not sure about this: Arnstadt is the oldest city in Thüringen and was clearly an economical center of the area while Rudolstadt with it`s massive Heidecksburg is one of the most stunning symbols of absolutism in entire germany. It would be a really cool idea for a special building.

5.) Creating the province of "Saalegau" with the locations Arnstadt and Saalfeld. It might be a good representation of the land owned by the Schwarzburg. Although the exact place of the "Saalgau" will remain a mystery since there are no maps as far as i know.

6.) As someone living in Thüringen I feel a bit pain seeing the culture in the area represented as saxonian. The name "Saxony" has nothing to do with the people living in the area but dynastic reasons. In fact the area of Saxony was mainly colonized by people from Thüringen. So i would love to see Thuringian as a culture in the area of Thüringen
 
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@Pavía I have invested some time in research about the area in southern Thüringen to provide some recommandations, unfortunatly i cant insert links to my sources :(


1.) The location of Sonneberg should be changed to Saalfeld

Sonneberg was just a village with a small fortifaction in the time whilst Saalfeld was a trade center with imperial city rights and a major Benedictine imperial abby.

I would change the raw material within the location to stone or iron. I found german sources about iron mining and the Feengrotten were a shale mine in the middleages and later on. Also shale was massivly used as a construction material on all medival buildings in the area, so i think it would be the best match to use stone.

2.) Thus the country should be changed from Henneberg to Schwarzburg (It`s not a 100% precise, since parts of the location belonged to different counts, but i think best match, since Schwarzburg aquired Saalfeld and the Castle of Ranis from the King around 1200 thanks to the efforts during the crusade.)


3.) The dynasty of Arnstadt should be changed to Schwarzburg

The Askanier ( Counts of Orlamünde ) had land in the area of the location. But Schwarzburg was clearly the dominant dynastie in the location who just aquired Rudolstadt which they used as a new capital and residence.


4.) Renaming the location Arnstadt to Rudolstadt (?) Not sure about this: Arnstadt is the oldest city in Thüringen and was clearly an economical center of the area while Rudolstadt with it`s massive Heidecksburg is one of the most stunning symbols of absolutism in entire germany. It would be a really cool idea for special building.


5.) Creating the province of "Saalegau" with the locations Arnstadt and Saalfeld. Might be good representation of the land owned by the Schwarzburg.

6.) As someone living in Thüringen I feel a bit pain seeing the culture in the area represented as saxonian. The name "Saxony" has nothing to do with the people living in the area but dynastic reasons. In fact the are of Saxony was mainly colonized by people from Thüringen. So i would love to see Thuringian as a culture in the area of Thüringen
hey friend, this is the updated Germany+Bohemia setup :) https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/tinto-maps-12-germany-feedback.1729090/
 
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I've got a small piece of feedback regarding Switzerland. On the map, the tag between Uri, Schwyz, Lucerne and Bern is labeled as "Obw.", for "Obwalden". However, IRL the area was known as "Unterwalden", and it consisted of Obwalden (from "Unterwalden ob dem Wald", Unterwalden above the forest) and Nidwalden (from "Unterwalden nid dem Wald", Unterwalden below the forest). IMO it would be better to call the tag there Unterwalden, especially since the distinction between its two constituents is kind of fuzzy in early Swiss history: The founding members of the Swiss Confederacy are generally known as "Uri, Schwyz und Unterwalden". Obwalden and Nidwalden as separate political entities developed during the 14th and 15th centuries, but they were always closely connected and never had separate seats in the Confederacy. It seems rather arbitrary to me to give all the land there to one of the two halves, instead of just having the tag represent both of them.

I can't post links to sources, but the wikipedia article on Unterwalden is a good start, as is the article in the Swiss Historical Encyclopedia.
This change would be accurate. I hope this gets implemented.
 
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