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Tinto Maps #13 - 2nd of August 2024 - Maghreb

Hello, and welcome one more week to another Tinto Maps, where we assemble several maps for the shake of it (well, also to gather feedback, I guess). After the nightmarish maps of last week, we’re showing a much less fragmented region this week, the Maghreb. Let’s take a look at it, then.

Countries:
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This week I’m showing two versions of the country map, one without colored wastelands, and another with them colored (please take into account that some work still needs to be done regarding the coloring of the corridors). Only four new countries are to be shown this week (as Fezzan already appeared some weeks ago). First is first, there are dynamic keys for them similar to the Mamluks, so their full name in the game are ‘Marinid Sultanate of Morocco’, ‘Zayyanid Sultanate of Tlemcen, and ‘Hafsid Sultanate of Tunis’ (Tripoli starts with a random ruler, as we weren’t able to find which was the reigning dynasty in 1337). The main power in this period is the Marinid dynasty, ruling from Fās, after grabbing the power from the Almohads almost a century ago. They start at war with the Zayyanids of Tlemcen, and its capital is close to falling to the mighty Sultan Abu al-Hasan ‘Ali. They also have a foothold in Iberia, around Algeciras and Ronda, which may lead to future campaigns about the control of the Strait of Gibraltar.

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And this is the starting diplomatic situation between Morocco and Tlemcen, with the capital of the latter almost surrounded by the former...

Dynasties:
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Here we have the three main dynasties of the Maghreb in 1337, the Marinids, the Zayyanids, and the Hafsids. Apart from those, the dynasties of Tripoli and Fezzan are randomly generated, as we don’t know who was ruling in those places at that specific time.

Locations:
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Here are the maps of the locations. In the first, you may see the corridors (the non-named locations) connecting the Maghreb with the Saharan inner lands and oases. Regarding the location density, we might want to increase it in a few places (that Siṭṭāt location is too big compared to its neighbors, for instance).

Provinces:
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We’re open to suggestions for the provinces, as usual.

Areas:
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The areas of the Maghreb correspond to their historical division (al-Aqṣā, al-Awsat, al-Adna, and Tripoli). The northern section of the Sahara is split in two areas, the Western Sahara, and the Sahara Oases.

Terrain:
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Better late than never!

Cultures:
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The cultural division of the region is very, very interesting, we think. The first thing that I want to stress is that we’ve divided the most Arabized zones from the more traditionally Berber ones. The more Arabized cultures are the Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Lybian, and the Hassaniya tribe, in the western Sahara. Meanwhile, the Berber-speaking peoples are divided into Masmuda, and Sanhaja in al-Maġrib al-Aqṣā; the Zenati in al-Maġrib al-Awsat; the Kabylian, Chaoui, and Mozabite in al-Maġrib al-Adna; and the Eastern Berber (a name that we will probably change, given the feedback already received in the Egyptian Tinto Maps) in Tripoli. The Berber-speaking Tuareg and the Saharan-speaking Toubou inhabit the central Saharan Oases.

Religions:
Religions.png

Most of the region’s population practices Sunni Islam, with a very important zone where Ibadism is the majority, more or less corresponding with Mozabite and Eastern Berbers. Although it’s not shown on the map, there are two religious minorities present, the Mustaʿravi Jews, in a bunch of urban centers across the region, and some native Christians spread through al-Maġrib al-Adna.

Raw Materials:
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The Maghreb is very rich in different materials, especially Morocco (which was used a long time ago as a ‘RGO-gameplay’ testing ground by our QAs). The Saharan corridor is way less productive, but it’s somehow important for the next map…

Markets:
Markets.png

The market centers of the region are placed in Fās and Al-Jazā'ir, which makes for good market access and distribution for the start of the game, in general terms. You might notice that trading happens across the corridors, which makes for a real connection between the markets to the north and south of the Sahara in 1337. This means that we can effectively simulate the trading of Saharan and sub-Saharan goods (salt, alum, gold, ivory) to the north until maybe some European countries decide to explore down the African coast and make direct trading in the Gulf of Guinea, avoiding the Maghrebi intermediaries.

Population:
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The population of the region is around 5,5M, with an interesting distribution: al-Maġrib al-Aqṣā and al-Maġrib al-Adna have more or less a similar population, with al-Maġrib al-Awsat having half of them, and Tripoli and Saharan Oases being way less populated.

And that’s all for this week! The next one we will travel across the Sahara, and take a look at the region of Western Africa. See you!
 
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Long time lurker, I created this account to just give you few references. This comment is based on Yaqut al-Hamawi (1179–1229) the famous geographer known for his Mu'jam ul-Buldān - Dictionary of Countries- written towards the end of his life. The poor guy lived through the mongol invasions and gave testimony about it.
And my focus will be on Ifriqiyah.


Monastir : resource : Salt
Near Al-Monastir lies a salt marsh from which salt is transported by ships to various locations. … This large, populated village boasts a mosque, inns, markets, baths, and a well that never dries. There is also a grand fort built from large stones. (Ribat Al Monastir) The people of Al-Monastir are from the Quraysh tribe, descendants of Al-Rabi' bin Suleiman, who established the town upon his arrival in Ifriqiya. The town is inhabited by both Arabs and Berbers.


Susah : resource : Textile

Sousse is a prosperous city with abundant resources. … Outside Sousse, there are watchtowers, military outposts, and gatherings of the pious. Within the city, there is a large fortified watchtower known as the Ribāt, … This structure has four staircases leading to its summit. Sousse is renowned for its weaving industry, producing yarn that sells for twice its weight in gold.
 
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Amazigh and Berber are both acceptable in English and French. In arabic, Amazigh is more acceptable, while Berber can be considered a sort of slur. And Amazighian and Amazighs are simply gramatically incorrect, it's Imazighen and Amazigh respectively.

It's actually debated wether or not Berber actually does directly come from Greek and originally meant barbarian in practical use - I'd suggest reading Ramzi Rouighi's "Inventing the berbers" on this issue he argues that the term actually moved from an East African association with slaves to the modern berbers, and in fact the term barbar is sometimes still used to describe Nubians in Egypt and Sudan. In any case the term is more than it's etymology, and most berbers use it as a demonym today. Eastern Amazigh and Eastern berber would both be correct in this case.
Amazigh doesnt come from greek , the Mazic or variants like this was the original name . the greeks called them Libuens and the arabs called them berbers and if i recall the romans called them Maziks or something like this again. as for carthage it was something close to mahori ( peoples of the west) thus the name moor was born to refer to the tribes of morocco and western algeria regions
 
the forum rules tells me I'm spamming so I had to divide my post into two parts. sorry if this breaks the rules.

Binzart : Resource : Fish

Binzart is unique for its lake, which extends from the great sea to a point opposite the city. Each month, a different type of fish emerges from the lake, distinct from the fish of the previous month, continuing in this pattern until the end of the month when a new type appears. The sultan leases the fishing rights for a significant sum, reported to be twelve thousand dinars. … This coastal city is divided by a large river teeming with fish, which flows into the sea. The city is surrounded by a rocky wall and contains a mosque, markets, and baths.

Gafsa : is an Oasis, so ... dates


Gafsa is renowned for producing more pistachios than any other region in Ifriqiya, and these are exported to all parts of Ifriqiya, Andalusia, and Sijilmassa. The town also produces dates that resemble pigeon eggs and supplies Kairouan with various fruits. The water from the springs is meticulously distributed among the gardens using a measured system (the Qanat system).


Tuzer : Pronounced Tawzar according to Yaqut. prdoduces dates
Tozeur is a fortified city surrounded by a wall built of stone and bricks, featuring a well-constructed mosque and numerous markets. It is a fortified city with four gates, abundant in palm trees and gardens, and its extensive fertile lands make it the most prolific date-producing regions in Ifriqiya. Each day, a thousand camels laden with dates depart from Tozeur. The city's water supply comes from three streams … where the riverbed is about two hundred cubits deep, then divide into six canals each, further branching into countless irrigation channels.

The irrigation system is ingeniously designed with stone-built channels, ensuring equal distribution of water. Each channel measures two hand spans in width and one cubit in height. Farmers are allocated water based on a precise measuring system using a container … The city is also known for its exceptional citrons, unmatched in size, sweetness, and quality …The people of Tozeur are known for their peculiar culinary preferences, including the consumption of dog meat, which they raise and fatten in their gardens, feeding them dates. Beyond… the land is barren, consisting of sand dunes and saline soil, with no habitation or animals …
 
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Something that I will like to note is that Marinid control in Iberia in 1337 did not reach very inwards, as they only controlled two noteworthy locations Algeciras and Gibraltar as they had sent an army from Algeciras to capture Gibraltar in 1333 (which they successfully did). Ronda was given to Granada by the Marinids in the late 13th century and would remain in Granadese hands (unlike Algeciras) until it's fall to the Spaniards in 1485.

A brief overview of why the Marinids abandoned their holdings in Iberia.
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Why the Marinid expedition took place after the fall of Gibraltar.
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The last expedition of the Marinids in iberia with Algeciras loss to the Castilians after it's defeat. And the final abandonment of Marinids Iberian possessions, as Gibraltar would come under control of Granada shortly after.
IMG_20240728_113824.jpg


Basically the locations of Ronda and Marbela should be under the control of Granada in 1337 while Morocco should only hold Algeciras and Gibraltar after their successful jihad for Gibraltar 4 years earlier. With black stripes should be the new Granadese Morocco border.
sketch-1722605761397.png

I would also recommend to give that red salient area to the Ronda location, since that salient apart from looking awkward it's almost about to cut the Granadese holdings in half.

Edit:
Welp scratch everything above I guess, since Ronda was part of the Marinids after all. But maybe the red salient like area could be given to the Ronda location?
 
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That's like calling the Inuit "Eskimo" or the Sami "Lapp", and grouping Chinese Muslims into "Hui".

Might have been acceptable when EU4 was developed, but not today
Tell that to e.g. Wikipedia or most English language media, which still use the term.
I am not saying that the term cannot be viewed as problematic, or that it might become as deprecated as "Eskimo" in the future, but right now there is no consensus at all for it to be dropped. Yes, it is an exonym, but so is e.g. "Albanian" (and as far as I'm aware no one has proposed calling that culture "Shqiptar").
Project Caesar, at least in the English language version of the game, should use the most commonly accepted English names for countries, cultures and religions.
 
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Even if they are muslims should't Tlemcen be officially a kingdom? Everywhere I look on the internet I only read about the Kingdom of Tlemecen and not the Sultanate even if they where ruled by a Sultan and I know why, can someone explain this to me?
 
I’d really love if Tunis got a vassal of Bejaia to represent the Hafsids of Bejaia, as they were a thing.

Hafsids of Bejaia
They aren't a thing at this start date, as the 2 sultanates were unified by Abu Bakr by the start before collapsing once again shortly after his death, but it should probably be some sort of disaster (Or whatever would be the equivalent in this game).
 
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The location of Ain Salih seems to be more white than grey on the political maps compared to the surrounding 'locations', is that an uncolonized province being distinguished from its surrounding corridor locations? If so why is the location of Timmoun dark grey like the rest of the corridors, even though it appears to be colonisable? ALSO Why do some corridors have names - like Tabelbalt, but others like the one next to it also connecting Timmoun doesn't have a name?
General answer -> game is under development.

1. The location appears colored differently because of a graphical glitch, caused when you hover over a location when changing the mapmode. It's reported, it will be fixed.
2. Tabelbalt is a location, as there's some pops (4.290 tribesmen) inhabiting it.
 
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Hello, I have a question regarding saltpeter, because I noticed that Maghreb is another region where no location has saltpeter as its raw good. So far, in all Tinto Maps released at the moment, from what I saw there are only seven locations that can produce it: 1 in Anatolia, 1 in Low Countries/Germany, 2 in Italy and 3 in Iberia. Will there be other ways to get it besides trading? It seems to be rather crucial good for production of firearms, and its scarcity is worrying me a little.
 
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Is there a way for us to turn off the localized names of those provinces? It seems very strange to have "Al-Magrib al-Adna" right next to "Tripoli"
Right now the areas only have one name.
 
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In a comment on one of the early Tinto Maps you mentioned that you were doing Europe in a random order. Since you are now done with Europe save the North Atlantic Islands etc. Will you now be doing Africa in a random order, taking one continent after another?
 
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1. Countries can't control corridors but can control locations at each end of the corridors (thus making Saharan oases quite strategic, as they were in history.
2. Troops can move through them, if in any other location.
3. They are used for trading calculations.
4. We found while preparing the DD that there are some 'old remnants' of when they were locations, instead of corridors (and thus, they have culture and religion, but 0 pops). Those will be addressed, I already created a ticket for that.
like Fezzan and iserholn corridors ?
 
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We already took a look into this, but kt has two issues:
1. We don't know where exactly they inhabited.
2. We don't know about their size, apart from most likely being a tiny minority.
Couldn't you apply the same logic with which we ended up with some tiny norse minorities in scandinavia? I'd be enough taht some tiny mionrity exist as a culture as both a fun historical curiosity *and* allowing some (very very hard) chance for someoen to restore a roman africa or so.
 
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General answer -> game is under development.

1. The location appears colored differently because of a graphical glitch, caused when you hover over a location when changing the mapmode. It's reported, it will be fixed.
2. Tabelbalt is a location, as there's some pops (4.290 tribesmen) inhabiting it.
Thank you for the clarification! Sorry if my message sounded pointy, I understand there will be minor issues here and there during the development process. I didn't intend to nitpick, just shared what I noticed. Thank you for working so hard on this game we're all so eagerly waiting for <3
 
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Amazigh doesnt come from greek , the Mazic or variants like this was the original name . the greeks called them Libuens and the arabs called them berbers and if i recall the romans called them Maziks or something like this again. as for carthage it was something close to mahori ( peoples of the west) thus the name moor was born to refer to the tribes of morocco and western algeria regions
I never said amazigh came from greek though. Read my message again.
 
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Lookin at the locations map Laghouat looks like a location that is under control of Tlemcen at game start, it is fine, I think that the region could be represented as having low control and the possibility for a separatist state appear here should exist.

However, Tugurt starts the game uncolonized, a fast Google research informs that Tuggurt Sultanate probably appeared at the start of the XV century, so, the decision to not have it at game start in 1337 is reasonable. However, this country should appear at game through a dynamic history events and when it appears there should exist a possibility for the player tag switch to Tuggurt even in ironman.

Africa between XIV-XVIII century is a continent and a timeline full of cases where regions without a central government (in game represented by tagless locations) organized themselves in states for the first time. There should be a historical mechanic that enables the historical outcomes of tribal people founding a state for themselves (in game terms, locations without any tag spawning a tag) and the player should have the capacity to tag switch even in ironman. Otherwise countries (some of them, important regional players) as Ashanti, Dahomey, Loango, Kasanje, Lunda and Luba in Africa would be unplayable.
 
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