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Tinto Maps #17 - 6th of September 2024 - Arabia

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more developer diary for map lovers! This is the second this week, after the review of Poland, Ruthenia, and the Baltic. Hurray!

Today we will be taking a look at the lands of Arabia! So let’s start, without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.png

Colored Wastelands.png
This week, we have two country maps: one without colored wastelands for clarity, and one with them under the spoiler button. You might also wonder why there isn’t a third one with the Societies of Pops for the region. Well, that’s because Project Caesar has several layers to portray the simulation of a believable world (if you remember, one of our design pillars). A couple of weeks we presented the Societies of Pops as a new type of country, but if you go back to Tinto Talks #4, the Government Overview, Johan mentioned the different types of governments, which now you know are for Settled Countries. One of them is Tribal, which we think makes for a good representation of the most complex and organized tribal societies, which have some estate-like features while keeping some other tribal features.

Therefore, the way we’ve decided that fits better to portray the simulation of the Arabian Peninsula is having a divide between those countries that are Monarchies (Mecca, Yemen, Oman, Ormus, and the Jarwanids), and those that are Tribal (the rest of them). An interesting feature of the latter is that their lands will be full of Tribesmen pops, making the Tribal estate the most important one to manage. As a final note, I’d like you to understand that this is our interpretation for the simulation of the game, although it might not be the only one (as it happened with the discussions about which European countries should be decentralized with several subjects, and which shouldn’t). The good news regarding this is that we will be open to feedback and making changes, as usual; but also, that this setup can easily be changed through the script of the game, thus making it completely moddable after the game is released; so there could potentially be mods making inner Arabia covered by Societies of Pops instead of Tribal Settled countries, if you don’t like/agree with our interpretation, or just prefer it to be different.


Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

Among the dynasties of the region, you might find some old acquaintances, such as the Rasulids of Yemen or the Nabhani of Oman, while also having a bunch of new ones. And not a week without a bug, of course: the ‘al-Al’ prefix is an error, as those dynasties are using a locative, which is mixed with a second one, from the location; we will have that fixed, then.

Locations:
Locations.png

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Locations 4.png
The locations of the region, with more detailed maps under the spoiler button for three different sections (Northern and Central Arabia, Southern Arabia, and Eastern Arabia).

Provinces:
Provinces.png


Areas:
Areas.png


Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

You might notice that most of Arabia is an arid, desertic plateau. The only exception to this is some fertile mountain valleys in Yemen, which was known as Eudaimon Arabia/Arabia Felix for a reason.

Natural Harbors:
Harbors.png


Cultures:
Cultures.png

The cultural division of the region is quite interesting, as it’s divided into several Arabic-speaking people. And for those that might wonder, yes, Socotra has its own culture, Soqotri. We still have to add some minorities here and there, though, so we will take the opportunity to do it during the map review.

Religions:
Religions.png

The religious division of Arabia is also interesting, having Sunni, Shiite, and Ibady majorities spread across the peninsula. We have yet to address the minorities, which were not ready for the Tinto Maps, so we will show what that looks like on the map, and review as well. By the way, we might do some work in the coming weeks regarding Islam, and one of the things that I think we may tweak is the coloring, as Ibadi is too similar to Shiite; so I think that this might be a good opportunity to ask for your preferences about the coloring of the different branches of the Islamic faith.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

Dates, livestock, horses, and some wheat and sand make for a healthy economy if you’re a Tribal country, I guess? Jokes aside, the desertic lands of Northern and Central Arabia have a more simple resource distribution, while Yemen and Oman, on the other hand, have quite rich resources, such as Pearls, Alum, Copper, Dyes, Silk, and Coffee (who doesn’t like a good mocha?).

Markets:
Markets.png

There are five market centers present in this region: Mecca, Al-Hajar, Al-Hasa’, Hormoz, and ‘Adan. Coupled with the resources in the previous section, the control over ‘Adan and Hormoz will be strategically relevant, as it was historically.

Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png
This week there aren’t (almost) issues with the population of the region, so we’re able to show it to you. The entire region has around 4.5M pops, which are unevenly distributed; Yemen has 1.6M, and Mecca 776K, making for more than half of the total, while a good chunk of it belongs to the Mamluks (that control all the area around Madina.

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, I have good news: we have finished the feedback review of Anatolia, and therefore I’ll post it on Monday! That way it will make for a week without a Tinto Talks more bearable. And on Friday, there will be maps for a new region, Iran and the Caucasus! See you!
 
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Oman effectively functioned as a semi-isolated area during the period, as this is not a very traversable region. We will make an extra check after feedback, but in principle, this is WAD.
please devs remember the stretch for 500 years
the game is about our history so who said oman gonna stay isolated ( it didnt in real history too since it became a colonial empire in 16th century and main contact with far east asia and deep africa)
and finally lets lets say we force an alliance as yemen with Oman , will we have to use ships to help them in a war ?
please consider connecting the 2 or at least add the mahri tribes and other tribes or leave it empty for colonisations along the road
1725724104204.png

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Amazing!
I have a problem with the cultures though as they seem very arbitrary to me like what’s the difference between Bahrana and khaliji? They’re both Arabs and live by the coasts, i think making the cultures follow the tribes is more accurate, if you have an Arabic speaking researcher on the team I recommend the YouTube channel Wird Academy that has good videos showing the different areas of Arabia with a visual map, also add some Persians and Baloch cultures.

It’s weird that Oman has no natural harbors considering the fact that it was known for its navy allowing it’s control over East Africa later and it’s historical trade with India, I would recommend Muscat and Suhar.
Also there should be a route between Yemen and Oman, this map shows the routes taken by muslim armies in the Riddah wars, you can see an army from Oman marched through the route to crush the rebellion in Mahra

IMG_5471.jpeg


The rest is a repost of what I wrote on the Egypt and levant dev diary:

I am confused why there is a differentiation between Bedouin and Hijazi or Najdi, being Bedouin is just a lifestyle, you can be both Bedouin and Hijazi or Bedouin and Najdi, a lot of Arabians have lived a Bedouin lifestyle at some point. If you still want to make northern Hijaz a different culture (although I don’t see enough differences to make a new culture) calling it Shamali would be better because it’s the current name used for the tribes in the north.
Minor nitpick; Hijaz is the name of the strip of mountains between Najd and the western coast Tihama where Makkah is.

I’m pretty sure the Sharifate of Madinah should be a vassal of the Mamluks, they were the rulers until the dissolution of the ottomans.

Regarding the raw materials, it’s a bummer not seeing camels as they were and to some extent still are one of the most important assets in Arabia, not only for their meat and milk but also for transportation and a lot of wars were fought on their backs.

Also I agree with some comments that said that some of the mountains of Arabia should be impassable, some of them reach the height of 3000 meters.
 
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Glad to see my tribe presented in Eu5 again, Dawasir, but I gotta add few things that are misplaced, First is that the Tribe dynasty should be Al-Zayid (same as Eu4 one) not Lailai. More is the population is too low for Dawasir especially that our lands were mostly farms, mostly in Wadi Al Dawasir area. Further more is that there needs at least be one horses production province since horse breeding was a thing for us.

I would love to help more if you need more sources to research.

P.S I would love to see some special missions for Dawasir since they had minor expansions in the eastern region.
I totally agree, as a Dawasiri myself, I'm glad to see a fellow tribesman who likes Paradox games. And I totally agree with what you said especially the population part, and yea unique missions for Dawasir would be epic!
 
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Why?

Wastelands don't mean zero population. They mean insufficiently populated to provide notable manpower or economic input. Which seems entirely appropriate for that strip.
It doesn't seem that even a corridor would be appropriate. Is there any historic evidence of armies moving by land along that strip during the period?
It seems pretty unlikely given the climate: See Google Earth.
Wasteland in PC is reserved for land which is basically uninhabitated and almost unaproachable till present day (deserts, tropical rain forrests, mountain tops...). That area of Oman, hardly fits.

"Insufficiently populated to provide notable manpower or economic input" parameter would disqualify probably whole northern Scandinavia, Finland and Karelia, but they made locations in those areas, true, most of them uncolonized at the game start.

That strip of land is at least as accesible and populated at the game start as those areas, if not more.
 
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As a Hejazi Arabian, allow me to put my two cents in.


Jeddah:

As some folks mentioned earlier, Jeddah at the time was the main port from and to Mecca. The port was present before Islam and its importance increased after the Islamic expansions.


Northern Hijaz:

The grouping of the Northern Hijazi region in the same culture as Sinai Bedouins, not those of Hejaz or even Nejd, might not be the most representative of reality. One might confuse the general Bedouin culture with the "Badawi" culture present is Sinai. Bedouin (Nomadic) culture is present all over Arabia, especially Hijaz, Najd, and the Khaleej. Especially in the Hijaz region, the nomadic and urban dialects have great distinctions due to Hijazi urban centers (Mecca, Medina, Jeddah) being cultural melting pots for the people who come from all around the world for pilgrimage while the nomadic Bedouins are mostly isolated in the countryside. Bedouin culture is similar to the "Fellahin" culture present in the Egyptian countryside and the Tribal culture present in most of the rural Levant. All being rural variations of that regions cultures.


Southern Hijaz:

This might not be my strongest point, but I feel the Yemeni culture might be a bit overextended in the North. While the original Yemen as a geographical region was defined as any point southern to Mecca, the cultural cut might not be as straightforward. Areas such Turbah, Bisha, and Qunfudhah are part of the Hejazi cultural continuum. Some might even argue that Abha is culturally Hijazi.


Al-Sammar:

The region named here "Al-Sammar" is most commonly known as Hail region. For Sammar (Shammar) is the name of one of the tribes there, famous for including the Rashidi family that established an Independent Emirate in the region.
 
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Amazing!
I have a problem with the cultures though as they seem very arbitrary to me like what’s the difference between Bahrana and khaliji? They’re both Arabs and live by the coasts, i think making the cultures follow the tribes is more accurate, if you have an Arabic speaking researcher on the team I recommend the YouTube channel Wird Academy that has good videos showing the different areas of Arabia with a visual map, also add some Persians and Baloch cultures.

Baharna Arabic and Gulf Arabic are two different variaties,
 
That area of Oman, hardly fits.
On what basis would you say that?
The Nabhani Dynasty who controlled Oman at the time weren't in that area.
As best I can tell, the modern population of the region is a few thousand people, mostly related to the oil industry.
But the most remarkable show of uninhabitability is that there is very little information available on the area even now. The government page says it has nice scenery. And the wikipedia page is, I think, a joke page.
 
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Glad to see my tribe presented in Eu5 again, Dawasir, but I gotta add few things that are misplaced, First is that the Tribe dynasty should be Al-Zayid (same as Eu4 one) not Lailai. More is the population is too low for Dawasir especially that our lands were mostly farms, mostly in Wadi Al Dawasir area. Further more is that there needs at least be one horses production province since horse breeding was a thing for us.

I would love to help more if you need more sources to research.

P.S I would love to see some special missions for Dawasir since they had minor expansions in the eastern region.
2+
 
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Amazing!
I have a problem with the cultures though as they seem very arbitrary to me like what’s the difference between Bahrana and khaliji? They’re both Arabs and live by the coasts, i think making the cultures follow the tribes is more accurate, if you have an Arabic speaking researcher on the team I recommend the YouTube channel Wird Academy that has good videos showing the different areas of Arabia with a visual map, also add some Persians and Baloch cultures.

It’s weird that Oman has no natural harbors considering the fact that it was known for its navy allowing it’s control over East Africa later and it’s historical trade with India, I would recommend Muscat and Suhar.
Also there should be a route between Yemen and Oman, this map shows the routes taken by muslim armies in the Riddah wars, you can see an army from Oman marched through the route to crush the rebellion in Mahra

View attachment 1184850

The rest is a repost of what I wrote on the Egypt and levant dev diary:

I am confused why there is a differentiation between Bedouin and Hijazi or Najdi, being Bedouin is just a lifestyle, you can be both Bedouin and Hijazi or Bedouin and Najdi, a lot of Arabians have lived a Bedouin lifestyle at some point. If you still want to make northern Hijaz a different culture (although I don’t see enough differences to make a new culture) calling it Shamali would be better because it’s the current name used for the tribes in the north.
Minor nitpick; Hijaz is the name of the strip of mountains between Najd and the western coast Tihama where Makkah is.

I’m pretty sure the Sharifate of Madinah should be a vassal of the Mamluks, they were the rulers until the dissolution of the ottomans.

Regarding the raw materials, it’s a bummer not seeing camels as they were and to some extent still are one of the most important assets in Arabia, not only for their meat and milk but also for transportation and a lot of wars were fought on their backs.

Also I agree with some comments that said that some of the mountains of Arabia should be impassable, some of them reach the height of 3000 meters.
for difference between Hijazi or Najdi or khaliji i think that have to do with life style indeed but it do influence culture slightly .
khalijis being in the gulf are pearl farmers and divers and fisherman , so they dont nomad
najdis in other hand are nomads and who have big herds of sheeps , goats and camels and oxes .
hedjazis are not very nomadic and live in the slightly more pastoral and urbanised hedjaz so they are more of traders and farmers .

i think these 3 differences is why bedouin culture was split . such difference is why north african natives are different between coastal and nomad and moutain too
 
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A quick pass after plotting everything on a map - many of these I couldn't find/identify or had approximate locations, so feedback is a bit limited. A much more workable amount of area after the last two, however!

A quick legend for the colors used:
  • White - Location
  • Red - Misplaced City (aka location outside of its boundaries)
  • Green - Potential New Location
  • Yellow - Informational
  • Orange - Typo
1725768925561.png

  • Dubay is outside of its location
  • A couple options to replace or augment Khor Fakkan (in decreasing importance)
    • Dibba - large historical harbor dating back to Sassanid period and earlier
    • Fujairah - fort dates to the 16th century
    • Al Badiyah - home of the Al Bidya Mosque, estimated to date from the 15th c.
  • Potential location in Oman, Dhank
    • Nothing particularly special, just seems to be an old settlement
  • EDIT: Al Kamil U Al Uafi should be renamed
    • Would recommend probably just Al Kamil, since the name translates as "Al Kamil and Al Wafi"
    • Should at least be Al Kamil Wal Wafi or Al Kamil wa Al Wafi

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  • Qatif is just south of its location
  • Al Kharj/Yamamah may be just outside of its borders
  • Potentially new location: Dawadmi - A later foundation (c. 1800?), but seems to be historically significant and have a longer history of settlement?
  • NOT PICTURED but, Aba-al-Qur is way outside of its boundaries (it's at the Iraqi/Saudi border from what I can tell)

1725769809370.png

  • Bir Ibn Hermas is outside of its location
  • Potentially new locations: Shaghb (ignore Shawaq); historically related to Bada
  • Potentially new location: Hegra/Mada'in Salih; was a post on the Hajj route, fort built by the Ottomans
  • Al-Jar is potentially outside of its location; I've seen it placed in a few different areas though
  • Badr is potentially in the Al-Jar location (hard to tell)
  • Potentially new location: As Safra' - dates to the 12th/13th century

1725770594751.png

  • Suq Al-Ghinan is outside of its borders
  • Lahij is outside of its borders
  • Hajar is possibly outside of its borders
  • Potential new locations:
    • Khaywan - ancient settlement; pre-Islamic
    • Naʽat - ancient settlement; pre-Islamic
    • Dhale - capital of a late Yemeni emirate
    • At Turbah/Turbah Dhubhan - ancient settlement; pre-Islamic
    • Al Abr - town on the Incense Route
  • Typo: Arradya should be Arrayda

Not much to note on provinces but just a few light recommendations:
  • Tayma Province to Nafud
    • After the desert
  • Weast Al-Qasim to Samira
    • (or at least West Al-Qasim)
  • East Al-Qasim to Buraidah
  • Abyan to Aden
    • Aden deserves its own named province! And Abyan appears to be further east
  • Bir 'Ali to Mukalla or Al-Shihr
    • Seem to be the more important cities; Al-Shihr seems to be more important than Mukalla at game start
  • Laila to Al Aflaj
    • After the area
    • Possibly split off the wasteland as its own Rub Al Khali province/area? Seems weird seeing Laila/Najd stretch all the way to the Indian Ocean
  • Wadi Al-Batin
    • Could potentially split off the coastal locations as Grane/Kuwait/Kazma
  • Nita to Qaryat al-Ula
    • Seems to be the bigger settlement
    • There's also potentially aṣ-Ṣummān, a region that Qaryat al-Ula is in according to Wiki, but not sure of its exact extents.

Lastly, Dibba (if added), Aden, Mukalla and Al Shihr should all have some level of harbor. This is definitely not exhaustive, however.
 
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Baharain (dilmun/awal) should really be a port, owing to its rich hisotry of being a trading hub in the region. It was even conquered by the portugese for its strategic location. Also bahrain should be a pearl producing country, being on the most most famous places in the region for pearls; its economy also being reliant on pearls.

Also there should be shown a minority of arabian pops in the coast of persia in my opinion. With the arab migrnats intermixing with the local persian population and later on creating the unique huwala people
 
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Will the emirate of Medina be added to the game?
The link below contains a list of the city's rulers.
medyna.png

It's also worth considering adding the Hali Sultanate.
Ibn Battuta also spoke about the Sultan of Hali, saying: “Its Sultan is Amir bin Dhu’ayb from Banu Kinanah , and he is one of the distinguished literary men and poets. I accompanied him from Mecca to Jeddah , and he had performed the Hajj in the year thirty. When I arrived in his city, he accommodated me and honored me, and I stayed as his guest for a few days.”
Ibn Battuta was there in 1330 and the oasis was then ruled by a sheikh from the Kinana tribe.
Hali.png

There is one more country that can be added, but there is little information about it.

The Sulaymanid dynasty probably survived until 1536 under the name Qutbi, ruling its emirate in the Asir Region.
The region of Abu ʽArish was governed by independent local sheikhs from the 13th century ; these sheikhs bore the title of sherif (noble of the Prophet's family) because they were (supposedly) descendants of the Prophet.
Abu Nami seized Jizan, and the emirate of the Qutbi family, the last family of the Sulaymani sharifs who ruled the Sulaymani district from 393 AH(1002-1003) - 943 AH(1536-1537), ended at his hands.
Some of the Sulaymanis settled in the Sulaymani district in the southwest of the Arabian Peninsula, which currently consists of Tihama, Hijaz , Asir and the Jazan region in the southwest of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia . Their settlement in that region began in the late fourth century AH, and they soon achieved a political and social status that enabled them to establish a hereditary rule in that region since the late fourth century AH. Their rule continued until the year 943 AH / 1536 AD, when Sharif Abu Numi Muhammad bin Barakat, Sharif of Mecca and Hijaz , eliminated them and annexed their country to Mecca .
Under the Ayyubids , the Sulaymanids, now also called Ghanimides , were mentioned as the Shutut, but the meaning of this name is unknown. Two sons of Kasim ibn Ghanim successively revolted against the Ayyubids and were defeated. Under the rassulida al-Ashraf Umar ibn Yusuf (died in 1296 ) mentions Hashim ibn Wahhas, descendant in the fourth generation of Ghanim ibn Yahya, as lord of Djayzan in his time; other Ghanimids were lords of Baysh and Baghita and others reigned over the Damad (upper and lower) in Sabya and Lulua (al-Shukayk). A branch of the Ghanimids arose in the 15th century , the Kutbids or Kutbites (from Kutb al-Din Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad) with their capital in Darb al-Nadja near Abu Arish, who were vassals of the Rasulids and later the Tahirids of Yemen .
The Sultanate of Hali or the Sultanate of Hali Bani Yaqoub is an Arab emirate that was established in (the west of the Arabian Peninsula ) and belongs to the Bani Haram of the Kinanah tribe . It was called the Sultanate of Hali bin Yaqoub and the rule of this family began in the fourth century AH. It had many wars with the rulers of Mecca and the rulers of Asir and had strong relations with the sultans of Yemen.
jemen.png
 
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It's sad that you go different routes again for each continent.... Why are some Africans societies of people, but some weirdo Arab tribe is a playable country? Why is there no coherent design policy
societies are emerging countries , think of natives of stellaris who can become a faction later.
the Question is not why arabia have some established tribers , arab clans could control huge areas but the question is why arabia dont have emerging clans . in that area cut between yemen and oman there is an ethnic group with its own diialect and history and who did exist as a kingdom of the Mehri peoples. just because their kingdom disolved doesnt mean that area was empty . arabia should have a layer of emerging tribes and established ones
 
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please devs remember the stretch for 500 years
the game is about our history so who said oman gonna stay isolated ( it didnt in real history too since it became a colonial empire in 16th century and main contact with far east asia and deep africa)
Just want to point out that being isolated by land (which is what the dev was talking about), and forming an colonial empire via the sea, are not mutually exclusive. Just ask the British.
 
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