Tinto Maps #17 - 6th of September 2024 - Arabia

[Pavía]

I hope you will forgive me for asking a more generic map question. The Tinto talk this week told us about certain types of sea-zones potentially freezing in winter. Is there any chance we could get an up to date map showing the types of sea-zones for all the sea-zones in the different regions already covered. That way we can provide feedback on potential issues. As an example of the type of issues I mean, I can mention the Straits of Dover which in the original French Tinto Map is given as a Narrow, which is one of the types of sea-zones that can freeze. However, this has never happened even during the mini ice age and would be extremely unlikely to ever happen given the distance across and the tidal currents.

It would also be great if you could tell us if we should mention such issues in the relevant Tinto Map or in the Winter Tinto talk.

It's not a bad idea, but it's too soon for that yet, as we have some pending planned work regarding sea zones polishing all across the world.

 

[Pavía]

Given that "country type" and "government type" are two separate cathegories, sure there is a possibility to have "tribal government ABCs", no? Just like how a settled country can be tribal, monarchy or republic too, an ABCs could be tribal, monarchy and republic aswell, technically

That's technically possible, but I can't yet talk about that.

 

[Pavía]

Two questions

1.Considering the spelling of "Hormoz" is the country's primary culture Persian?

Yes.

 

[Pavía]

I don't have a lot of knowledge in the region, but wasn't Mokha just the main coffee trading port, instead of the center of production of coffee? Maybe some inland locations should produce coffee instead, maybe around Sana'a (where coffee is currently planted).

It's present in two locations, Al-Mukha, and Ta'izz.

 

[Pavía]

I guess most of those livestock provinces are actually camels, cattle are too thirsty to thrive there, swine are too haram (and probably too thirsty too), sheep are represented by wool production, and horses are separate.

Also, is the Sunni Ummah an I.O.?

1. Goats, camels, etc.
2. The Sunni mechanics are not yet fully implemented, but we're currently leaning towards having an IO only if a proper Caliphate is restored (because the Cairo Caliphs were not really recognized by anyone else but the Mamluks).

 

[Pavía]

I have a question, are sea tiles split by provinces as well?

Provinces and areas, yes.

 

[Pavía]

"...so I think that this might be a good opportunity to ask for your preferences about the coloring of the different branches of the Islamic faith."

I have red-green colorblindness, and I can't distinguish all that many shades of green. For me, it's very difficult to differentiate the Shiite and Ibadi map colors. I did not realize Ibadi was on the map at all right away. I can easily distinguish the Sunni and Shiite map colors, though.

If I was the supreme God-Emperor of Paradox, I would request that my minions switch Ibadi to a shade that's much darker. Alternatively, a shade of green with significant yellow saturation would help.

This is really insightful for us, as we really want to make the game accessible for people with colorblindness, thanks a lot!

 

[Pavía]

Some notes on the harbors.
Muscat has an excellent, if small, port; that has to be an oversight. On the other hand, the arabian gulf coast is very shallow and filled with shoals and sand banks that are exposed at low tide, all the modern ports that you see today required very extensive dredging and land reclamation. The Persian side is a little better, although even Hormuz isnt that great of a port in itself, it owes its significance to its strategic location moreso than its harbor.
FInally the Shatt al-Arab should be navigable up to Basrah and the natural harbors at Abadan and Az Zuwayr should be moved to Basrah.

This is exactly the feedback we're looking for regarding natural harbors, thanks!

 

[Pavía]

I love that you've updated the Arabic script (using dots for the emphatic letters and backwards apostrophes for 'ayn), but I wish you'd be more consistent with it. Half of the names show assimilation of the al- prefix (e.g., ar-Rayn, ad-Dawāsir), but half of them don't (e.g., al-Shammar al-Sudayr). The L should assimilate if the noun begins with a D, T, S, Z, R or N.

Also, why do you sometimes use transliteration of the Arabic for cultures (like Hijāzī) but sometimes leave it English (like Yemeni). It would probably make most sense to use the English for all culture names (so Hijazi or Hejazi both of which are fully acceptable spellings in English).

Agreed, we've got to do a lot of work regarding the standardization of the Arabic script. I've forwarded this to the CD in charge of it (although he's already doing a great job, it's just that we need some more time to have it all done properly).

 

[Pavía]

hello Pavia when are we getting the Pontic steppe and the lower Volga regions?

Soon.

 

[Pavía]

Alright, another Topography session!

In summary:

• I feel the topographic classification in the Asir mountain range is too forgiving in the current design, and should see a lot more mountains, impassables and ridge crossings if possible.
• The Hajar mountains in the East are completely neglected in the current design, and should see some expansion with impassibles or ridge crossings.

Indications of where I feel ridge crossings should be present are indicated as purple lines, and were made independently of the other suggestions.

Current Topography according to Tinto	Suggested Topography	Suggest topography "Changelog"
View attachment 1184530	View attachment 1184531	View attachment 1184532

Terrain Ruggedness Index for Arabia	DEM with linear color scale	DEM with exaggeration of lower topography
View attachment 1184533	View attachment 1184534	View attachment 1184535

Spoiler: Categories Terrain Ruggedness Index

Elevation \ TRI	0 - 0,4	0,4 - 8	8 - 23	23 - 50	50+
0 - 500	Wetlands	Flatlands	Flatlands	Hills	Mountains
500 - 1250	Wetlands	Plateau	Plateau	Hills	Mountains
1250 - 2500	Wetlands	Plateau	Hills	Mountains	Mountains/Impassable
>2500	Wetlands	Plateau	Hills	Mountains	Impassable

A sneak preview is the lower Mesopotamian wetlands discussion, which is very hard to define for the 1300s.
In summary:

Peat-ML map + overlay of Floodplains, Coastal landforms and Marshes from aforementioned paper	Geomorphologhical map of Lower Mesopotamia from aforementioned paper
View attachment 1184542	View attachment 1184543

Great job, as usual, thank you one more week!

 

[Pavía]

please devs remember the stretch for 500 years
the game is about our history so who said oman gonna stay isolated ( it didnt in real history too since it became a colonial empire in 16th century and main contact with far east asia and deep africa)
and finally lets lets say we force an alliance as yemen with Oman , will we have to use ships to help them in a war ?
please consider connecting the 2 or at least add the mahri tribes and other tribes or leave it empty for colonisations along the road View attachment 1184847
View attachment 1184845

We'll take a look at it, but I want to point out that Oman became a maritime power, precisely, that's why I said semi-isolated: it expanded through the sea, not the land, with one of the reasons being its geographical position.

 

[Pavía]

Is lapis lazuli mining going to be represented by dyes?

Gems.