Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

[SuperLexxe]

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Regarding religion in Gilan, the following excerpt would indicate there were more Sunni than Shia in Gilan at the time.

Die Mongolen in Iran - Politik, Verwaltung und Kultur der Ilchanzeit (1955):

"At that time, Gilan was divided into twelve small principalities that, while differing in governance, shared a type of defensive autonomy. They were:

1. Fūmān, located in the center of the country near the mountains, belonged to the principality of Lahijān. The ruler there, the only supporter of Shiite law in Gilan, remained neutral in trade dealings with the Mongols.
2. Tūlims' ruler had 1,000 soldiers at his disposal. He was primarily responsible for the Mongols' defeat in 1307. He was a follower of the Hanbalite school of law and was considered the most powerful ruler in the region.
3. The ruler of Gaskars, despite an alliance with the ruler of Tūlim, fared poorly.
4. Rasht was finally regarded as the last remaining superior power in the land

The princes (Hokema'), due to the small size of their territories, only maintained modest courts, though they used royal symbols like drum houses and Raqabaq (horsehead poles) when traveling. The income was largely based on natural products. Their palaces were often made of wood, a testament to the region. In times of war, they could muster about 20,000 men, consisting of both locally settled troops and voluntary forces. In their freedom, the population distinguished themselves as Hanbalites."

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[The Last]

I was checking the other maps and their replys and realised that iran iraq azerbaijan armenia and even to some extent georgia have much lower populations then many other similar sized areas on other maps like kingdom of navara or nasrwn are less then a quarter size of the injuid and mozzafferids but have such higher population densities now I do undrestand being desert and sparse mostly makes an area less hospitable but even looking at the arabias map oman has 224k while medina and al-saqrai both have greater population density then previously mentioned areas having 776k nad 306k and the climate in these areas is even worse.
These population numbers in iran iraq and armenia would be closer to a post timurid and black death world after their destruction of area not before them.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

The Siba

"With heavy military taxes and exorbitant exactions, the Mongol yoke burdened and weakened the Georgian people. The wars among the II-Khans and their rivalries devastated the country. Especially disastrous for Georgia were the raids of the Mongols of the Golden Horde in the 1260s: the eastern provinces were ravaged, the see of Rustavi was destroyed and the center of the bishopric moved to Martq'opi. The estates of Davitgareji monastery turned into deserts and pastures, the cities of Uplistsikhe, Rustavi, Khornabuji, Khunani were ruined and have never recovered."

"Special fortification (Siba) was erected on the Tetrits'q'ali, the easternmost frontier of the Georgian kingdom, to protect the Ilkhanate from the invasions of the Golden Horde (KC II: 248-56, 258-67 = Georg.Chron.: 357-67; Rashid al-Din: 68)."
​

Built by the orders of Hülegü Khan in the mid-13th century, by 1337, these massive fortifications would still be standing, and would only be destroyed by Tamerlane decades after the start of the game.
In game, I think this province or location should be given a buff to its fort defense. As a downside, maintaining the garrison for the giant wall in the middle of a hostile, arid steppe should be very taxing for the kingdom - according to contemporary sources, David VII "Ulugh" died from dysentery in 1270 when an epidemic struck this region, as it so often did after the Mongol conquest. Not only that, but the Ilkhans specifically levied Georgian troops for the garrisoning of this wall, as to weaken the kingdom even further - perhaps this can be represented by it draining the manpower pool more than any other fort in the kingdom, even as it is independent by 1337.

 

[prinscky]

I was checking the other maps and their replys and realised that iran iraq azerbaijan armenia and even to some extent georgia have much lower populations then many other similar sized areas on other maps like kingdom of navara or nasrwn are less then a quarter size of the injuid and mozzafferids but have such higher population densities now I do undrestand being desert and sparse mostly makes an area less hospitable but even looking at the arabias map oman has 224k while medina and al-saqrai both have greater population density then previously mentioned areas having 776k nad 306k and the climate in these areas is even worse.
These population numbers in iran iraq and armenia would be closer to a post timurid and black death world after their destruction of area not before them.

I was under the impression that the devs are still working on the minorities in those places, Transcaucasia was a very complicated place at that time. Purely speculative though~

 

[L1nk48]

Here I have circled the territory of historical residence of the peoples of the Lezgin language group. And in those regions that I have shaded, they should be the majority, with the exception of Derbent, where they make up about 30-40% of the population due to constant movement towards the Persians and Arabs. One could also add "Lezgin" as a language group in Kachen, Mugan and the unmarked part of Arran. I explain this topic that in Kachen there were Udins, but with the advent of Islam their number there sharply decreased, and Mugan and South Arran suffered greatly first from the Seljuk and then from the Tatar-Mongol invasion, as a result of which the number of "Lezgin" villages, which includes the Apan people, greatly decreased. In Hereti, in addition to the Georgians, there live and continue to live Udins, Tsakhurs and the Lezgins themselves, as well as the resettled Persian population, called Tats. The same Lezgin peoples live in the mentioned part of Arran. Sheki is populated by Udins and Lezgins. Shabran, Shirvan and Shemakha are populated by Lezgins of the Shahdag group (Budukhs, Kryzs and Khinalugs), as well as by Lezgins themselves. All other unnamed but highlighted areas are populated either by Lezgins (Baku and further north to Lakzy and Derbent, of course), or by the remnants of the Alpans after the Seljuk and Mongol campaigns against them. It would be desirable to add Akhty, since from the 14th century until the Russian conquest, beks and volyan societies were formed here from time to time.

 

[L1nk48]

plus I think that the population for this time is too small. the Caucasus suffered its main losses after the Timurids' campaign and the plague epidemic. And to the previous message I want to add that in addition to the Lezgins in these territories we should add the Tats (Persians), minorities of Arabs and Jews

 

[L1nk48]

And sorry for my illiteracy, I'm just use translator

 

[GenericUsername1444]

завоевания Великобритании

lolwut

 

[L1nk48]

lolwut

I write Russia but it is translated as Britain ((

 

[SuperLexxe]

Here I have circled the territory of historical residence of the peoples of the Lezgin language group. And in those regions that I have shaded, they should be the majority, with the exception of Derbent, where they make up about 30-40% of the population due to constant movement towards the Persians and Arabs. One could also add "Lezgin" as a language group in Kachen, Mugan and the unmarked part of Arran. I explain this topic that in Kachen there were Udins, but with the advent of Islam their number there sharply decreased, and Mugan and South Arran suffered greatly first from the Seljuk and then from the Tatar-Mongol invasion, as a result of which the number of "Lezgin" villages, which includes the Apan people, greatly decreased. In Hereti, in addition to the Georgians, there live and continue to live Udins, Tsakhurs and the Lezgins themselves, as well as the resettled Persian population, called Tats. The same Lezgin peoples live in the mentioned part of Arran. Sheki is populated by Udins and Lezgins. Shabran, Shirvan and Shemakha are populated by Lezgins of the Shahdag group (Budukhs, Kryzs and Khinalugs), as well as by Lezgins themselves. All other unnamed but highlighted areas are populated either by Lezgins (Baku and further north to Lakzy and Derbent, of course), or by the remnants of the Alpans after the Seljuk and Mongol campaigns against them. It would be desirable to add Akhty, since from the 14th century until the Russian conquest, beks and volyan societies were formed here from time to time.

You will get a far better reception if you add some sources for this. It certainly sounds interesting.

 

[L1nk48]

I want to say that by Lezgins I mean not only Lezgins as a separate nation, but all Lezgin-speaking peoples, including Alapan, who according to numerous studies were attributed to the Lezgin language family (for example, the studies of Jost Giepert). Unfortunately, there is not much data about that time due to the destruction of the Baghdad library by the Mongols. I want to add that the small number of "Kurintsy" (as Baron Uslar called Lezgin) is due to the fact that not all Lezgins could speak the Kurin dialect, and part of the population spoke both Lezgin and Turkic languages, which resulted in the fact that during the first census they were recorded as Tatars (Turkic Aderbidzhanis) - modern Azerbaijanis.Also, the villages and churches (Alpanish) in the territory of the noted areas serve as confirmation of my words, as well as the genetic closeness of the local Turkized population.

You will get a far better reception if you add some sources for this. It certainly sounds interesting.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

The Siba

View attachment 1210352
View attachment 1210360
View attachment 1210353


"With heavy military taxes and exorbitant exactions, the Mongol yoke burdened and weakened the Georgian people. The wars among the II-Khans and their rivalries devastated the country. Especially disastrous for Georgia were the raids of the Mongols of the Golden Horde in the 1260s: the eastern provinces were ravaged, the see of Rustavi was destroyed and the center of the bishopric moved to Martq'opi. The estates of Davitgareji monastery turned into deserts and pastures, the cities of Uplistsikhe, Rustavi, Khornabuji, Khunani were ruined and have never recovered."

"Special fortification (Siba) was erected on the Tetrits'q'ali, the easternmost frontier of the Georgian kingdom, to protect the Ilkhanate from the invasions of the Golden Horde (KC II: 248-56, 258-67 = Georg.Chron.: 357-67; Rashid al-Din: 68)."
​

Built by the orders of Hülegü Khan in the mid-13th century, by 1337, these massive fortifications would still be standing, and would only be destroyed by Tamerlane decades after the start of the game.
In game, I think this province or location should be given a buff to its fort defense. As a downside, maintaining the garrison for the giant wall in the middle of a hostile, arid steppe should be very taxing for the kingdom - according to contemporary sources, David VII "Ulugh" died from dysentery in 1270 when an epidemic struck this region, as it so often did after the Mongol conquest. Not only that, but the Ilkhans specifically levied Georgian troops for the garrisoning of this wall, as to weaken the kingdom even further - perhaps this can be represented by it draining the manpower pool more than any other fort in the kingdom, even as it is independent by 1337.

@Johan are there any plans to implement defensive structures like walls in PC?
It'd be a big missed opportunity if something like the Great Wall of China wasn't a part of the game.

 

[Aramenian]

I would like to see such a cultural division of today's Azerbaijan

Nakhchivan in 1337 should have been majority Armenian with an Adhari minority in the south or throughout the province.

Kilit dialect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Julfa, Azerbaijan (city) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The area between Artsakh (Karabakh) and Zangezur should have been culturally Armenian at that time, because the Safavids resettled Kurdish tribes to this area sometime in 1589.

Zangezur – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia

pl.wikipedia.org

Kurds in Azerbaijan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to Russian and later Soviet ethnographer Grigory Chursin, another wave of Kurdish immigration in western parts of modern Azerbaijan may have taken place in 1589, at the time of the Ottoman–Safavid War, when "victorious Safavid soldiers" chose to stay in the conquered lands.[5] Safavids resettled Shi'a Kurds where borders of the historical regions of Karabakh and Zangezur met.

As the Russian scholar V. Shnirelman notes , in an attempt to weaken the Armenian meliks of Nagorno-Karabakh by separating them from the main Armenian territories, the Persian shahs of the Safavid dynasty resettled Kurdish tribes to the region located between Nagorno-Karabakh and Zangezur

Курдистанский уезд — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

Kurdistan Uezd - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

At the 1926 Soviet Census, the uezd had a total population of 51,426 people, with ethnic Kurds constituting 72.3% or 37,182 people. However, according to the same census, 92.5% of the population of the uezd cited Turkic (later known as Azerbaijani) as their native tongue.

Similarly, the province of Artaz, inhabited by Kurds, should have an Armenian population as the dominant one. This area is still ruled by the Armenian Amatuni family.

Artaz - Viquipèdia, l'enciclopèdia lliure

ca.wikipedia.org

Артаз — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

Udi should appear as the culture of Western Azerbaijan, they should profess Islam and Christianity.

Kiş, Shaki - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to Georgian historiography, in the 10th century, the population of Kish converted to the Georgian Orthodox Church. Known at the time as part of Sourb Asvatzatzin Church, Kish turned into a residence of Georgian bishop, functioning till 17th century.[8] The population of Kish converted to Islam in 1720s; however, when Russia later took possession of the region, some villagers returned to Christian faith.

The Mongolian Arlat tribe also lived in this region and probably ruled the city of Shaki in 1337, so the presence of Mongolian culture should be presented.

Sidi Ahmad Arlat - Viquipèdia, l'enciclopèdia lliure

ca.wikipedia.org

In the 30s of the 14th century, the local Oirat tribe took power.[16] After the collapse of the Hulagu Khan's rule in the first half of the 14th century, Shaki gained independence under the rule of Sidi Ahmed Orlat.

Shaki, Azerbaijan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Seyid Əli Orlat — Vikipediya

az.wikipedia.org

Şəki hakimliyi — Vikipediya

az.wikipedia.org

House of Black Monk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[nyetflix2]

Today we learned Arabic is the liturgical language throughout Iran, which is historically accurate. However, the concept of liturgical language in game also covers "by extension what scholars use in their academic works". To my knowledge, this was Persian, not Arabic, at least by the Safavid dynasty. In fact, there was a whole Persianate sphere that included Central Asia, Anatolia, and South Asia. Will this be represented in game somehow? Arabic and Persian were really the two major literary languages of the Islamic world.

Also two quick notes:
- shouldn't Adhari be considered its own language? It's not particularly closely related to Persian, not more than Kurdish or Mazanderani are.
- should Turkish, Azeri and Turkmen really be separate languages, instead of just separate dialects? The first two especially are still pretty interintelligible today.

 

[The Last]

Today we learned Arabic is the liturgical language throughout Iran, which is historically accurate. However, the concept of liturgical language in game also covers "by extension what scholars use in their academic works". To my knowledge, this was Persian, not Arabic, at least by the Safavid dynasty. In fact, there was a whole Persianate sphere that included Central Asia, Anatolia, and South Asia. Will this be represented in game somehow? Arabic and Persian were really the two major literary languages of the Islamic world.

Also two quick notes:
- shouldn't Adhari be considered its own language? It's not particularly closely related to Persian, not more than Kurdish or Mazanderani are.
- should Turkish, Azeri and Turkmen really be separate languages, instead of just separate dialects? The first two especially are still pretty interintelligible today.

so about the usage of arabic by irannians after the islamic conquest most scintific and religious books would be writen in arabic this continue well into early modern times even under safavids many works would be created in arabic although the safavid tried to strengthen an iranian identity still arabic remained the dominant language in matters of science and religion but the language of court and culture was different persian poems and art would come to dominate the turko persian world and in these areas whenever someone wanted to create a work of art it would often be in persian and there persian kinda becomes the language of art and politics while arabic remains the language of religion and science also in military many turkish words related to war started to be used by both arabs and persians

 

[nyetflix2]

so about the usage of arabic by irannians after the islamic conquest most scintific and religious books would be writen in arabic this continue well into early modern times even under safavids many works would be created in arabic although the safavid tried to strengthen an iranian identity still arabic remained the dominant language in matters of science and religion but the language of court and culture was different persian poems and art would come to dominate the turko persian world and in these areas whenever someone wanted to create a work of art it would often be in persian and there persian kinda becomes the language of art and politics while arabic remains the language of religion and science also in military many turkish words related to war started to be used by both arabs and persians

So I guess the Safavids for example would have Azeri primary culture, Arabic liturgical language and Persian court language?

 

[prinscky]

so about the usage of arabic by irannians after the islamic conquest most scintific and religious books would be writen in arabic this continue well into early modern times even under safavids many works would be created in arabic although the safavid tried to strengthen an iranian identity still arabic remained the dominant language in matters of science and religion but the language of court and culture was different persian poems and art would come to dominate the turko persian world and in these areas whenever someone wanted to create a work of art it would often be in persian and there persian kinda becomes the language of art and politics while arabic remains the language of religion and science also in military many turkish words related to war started to be used by both arabs and persians

The whole liturgical thing is a mess to me, non productive and misleading. I don't get it, what is the purpose of implementing liturgical language? Perhaps the devs could give us some more insights about it when they release the new institution spreading system. To me, only two language is important, one is used by common folks in their daily life which is also the merchants language, and the other is the official languages that would be used by the government officials to write law and regulations.

 

[prinscky]

Today we learned Arabic is the liturgical language throughout Iran, which is historically accurate. However, the concept of liturgical language in game also covers "by extension what scholars use in their academic works". To my knowledge, this was Persian, not Arabic, at least by the Safavid dynasty. In fact, there was a whole Persianate sphere that included Central Asia, Anatolia, and South Asia. Will this be represented in game somehow? Arabic and Persian were really the two major literary languages of the Islamic world.

Also two quick notes:
- shouldn't Adhari be considered its own language? It's not particularly closely related to Persian, not more than Kurdish or Mazanderani are.
- should Turkish, Azeri and Turkmen really be separate languages, instead of just separate dialects? The first two especially are still pretty interintelligible today.

If the Oghuz language was separated then the Chaghtai and Kipchak languages should be separated too.
And I would say they should just use Persian in Azerbaijan area, for it's an extremely complicated area with multiple languages and dialects. If they implemented Ahdari why not implementing the Tats, Talysh and other languages too? Like the Caucasus languages that people have been discussing about. It doesn't make sense.

 

[nyetflix2]

If the Oghuz language was separated then the Chaghtai and Kipchak languages should be separated too.
And I would say they should just use Persian in Azerbaijan area, for it's an extremely complicated area with multiple languages and dialects. If they implemented Ahdari why not implementing the Tats, Talysh and other languages too? Like the Caucasus languages that people have been discussing about. It doesn't make sense.

Except adhari is closely related to if not the ancestor of talysh and tati (not tat). Talysh right now is grouped with the mazanderani and gilaki languages.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Reposting my reply from the newest Tinto Talks, as I believe this thread is more appropriate for the subject at hand.



Language Groups

I believe that culture and language are inextricably tied for the Kartvelian people. Therefore, I suggest Project Caesar adopts a more realistic depiction of the Georgian world of the 14th century.

(very anachronistic map)

Locations corresponding to Georgian culture should be Georgian in terms of language. Same with Mingrelian in Mingrelia, Svan in Svanetia, and Laz in Lazeti.
Regarding Abkhazia, I believe Mingrelian culture should be present as a majority until the location of Bedia or Tskhumi, after which it becomes a significant minority among the non-Kartvelian peoples.

Provinces 5, 6, 7, and parts of the 2nd province south of the river Bzipi would've been majority Kartvelian speaking.

All of the above stated pops should see themselves as kindred, and belong to the same culture group, as they have historically descended from the same autocthonous population of the Kartvelian people, have shared statehood, religion, and geographical location.
I would be remiss if I also didn't mention the ancient community of the Georgian Jewry and their unique tongue - Kivruli - a mixed Georgian-based language with some Hebrew loanwords. Unlike the Jews of Europe, they inhabited both urban and rural areas.

Dominant languages

Historically, only Georgian was the standardised written language among its Kartvelian counterparts, so its depiction as the dominant language even in Mingrelian or Svan regions, for example, is somewhat accurate. Non-Georgian speaking areas in western Georgia had their own local Kartvelian vernaculars, uninteligible with Georgian. What isn't accurate, however, is, once again - Abkhazia. Like I said already, Abkhaz languages were never spoken that far into Kartvelian-speaking land.
One more thing to note is that lands farther east, into Hereti, up until the location of "Qakh" or "Shaki" would've been Georgian speaking, as would have been the location of Speri in the province of "Çıldır", or "Tao-Klarjeti", as I believe it should be called.

Liturgical languages

I believe the depiction of Georgian as the liturgical language for all of "core" Georgia is accurate. Some lands that were Kartvelian and under Georgian control still retained Hellenic liturgy, as was the case in Lazeti - a province that only recently became a part of Samtskhe. I won't repeat myself with regards to the location of Speri and the province of Hereti.

What's interesting is that the Christian north Caucasian tribes should practice the Georgian rites, as I proved in my older post in this thread. You can check it out here.
To the south, like I said in the aforementioned post, Armenia should be broken up into multiple vassals, and they should most likely practice Chalcedonian Orthodox Christianity:

(credit to @SuperLexxe)

In summary, I believe this map needs some work.

Dialects

This is where it gets tricky.
As with all isolated mountainous countries, Georgia (or Georgian, rather) naturally has a buttload of dialects, all of which are mutually intelligible, and would have been so in the 14th century as well.
According to the highly influential monk and historian Giorgi Merchule:

"ქართლად ფრიადი ქუეყანაჲ აღირაცხების, რომელსაცა შინა ქართულითა ენითა ჟამი შეიწირვის და ლოცვაჲ ყოველი აღესრულების".

We can consider as Greater Georgia wherever mass and prayers are said in Georgian [language].​

As with most things in Georgia, there's a big west-east dichotomy.
The most emblematic example I can give you is this map:

Now imagine this before industrialism.

The most comprehensive sources I can direct you to are all in Georgian, so a simple wikipedia link and some pictures are unfortunately all I can help you with.

(credit to @Georgian Noble)

That modern-imposed map may be of some use to you when modeling core Georgian dialects based on regions.

I personally disagree with the devs when it comes to the policy of "one dialect per culture", at least with regards to Georgia. Unless it is restricted by the core game design itself, I think a culture like Georgian should be able to have multiple dialects, determined by their respective regions, such as Imeretian in Imereti, or Kartlian in Kartli.

Market languages

Despite how much we may not like it to ackwnoledge it, Georgia historically used to be a country on the periphery on the middle east.
Historically, (non-domestic) trade was very much dominated by non-Georgian peoples, like Greeks, Persians, Armenians, Arabs, Turks, and Jews.
At the time of the game's setting, the grand majority of Georgian traders would've used Arabic, Persian, or even Hebrew as the language of commerce.
In Georgia, there was a special class designation for merchants - didvač̣ari, as a compound of did- (big) and vač̣ari (merhant), itself an Indo-European word. This proto-burgher class had at that point many privileges, like being of equal status with minor nobles, according to Vakhtang VI's law code "The Law of Prince Vakhtang".
So, back to languages - even at the height of Georgia's power under Tamar, Georgian coins were minted with Arabic inscriptions, which I believe shows just how integrated Georgia was with the wider near-eastern trade:

Hence, I think this depiction is incorrect.

This also hearkens back to my belief that Tbilisi should have its own market, seperate from Trebizond, as the city was quite prosperous and politically significant in 1337. Sadly, this would not remain for long.

Court language

Georgia, despite being undergoing heavy "Byzantinizing" (actual historiographical term) up to the 14th century, as in its state organisation and general culture, was still partly Persianate in its exotic influences, be it literary or artistic. Nevertheless, the court language is correctly depicted as Georgian.