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Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
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The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

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And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
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Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
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Provinces:
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Areas:
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Terrain:
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We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
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You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
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There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
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Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
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This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
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This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
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The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
 

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Good stuff! I have some recommendations regarding the western Caucasus:

What the map shows to be Abazins should, broadly speaking, be split between Abkhazians (Sadz tribe) and Circassians (Ubykh tribe)

Abazins a.k.a. Abaza people lived north of Caucasus mountains, directly above Abkhazian lands, but not below the mountains, they have never lived on the coastline.

Regarding Abkhazia:
1726242467205.jpeg

I believe there were no Abkhazians below this red line, that was Megrelian land, and in Italian sources sokhumi was called porto mengrello for this reason. However, the Sadz tribe of Abkhazia lived even further northwest than the current borders indicate, so I think it's a situation where the Abkhaz cultural border should be shifted slightly.

One small thing relating to Circassians: while Circassians and Kabardians speak the same language, the Ubykh were the only Circassian tribe to have a fully unique language of their own. Because of this, considering Svans and Mingrels are separate from georgians, then in my opinion it makes sense to separate Ubykh from the rest of the Circassians.

I asked a friend from the Caucasus if he had any more advice on cultural adjustments and this is what he had to say:

"svans lived in kodori valley, thats the extended part in black, mingrelians lived in rest of odishi too, thats in cyan, the blue over alans is where abazins should be, purple is where sadz abkhazians lived, red is where ubykh circassians lived"

1726242772409.jpeg


"abkhazian nobility took that land from mingrelian dadianis in like, the 1700s, that's when they pushed abkhazia to the enguri river, which is the current border. but this is not accurate for the 1300s."

Either way, good work!

EDIT: A map to show the 1700s change:
1726243330736.png

Also, another thing, samtskhe should not be separate if the start date is 1337, because in 1334 the king personally appointed the atabeg of samtskhe. You can read more about it on the wiki page for Qvarqvare I Jageli
 
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Has anyone on the team watched Rosencreutz's video 'EU5: Development, Divergence, and Simulation'? It compares EU4, Eu5, and the book 'Guns Germs and Steel'. It's ideas around the New World are interesting. Here is the link:
guns germs and steel is the worst history book ive ever read
 
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Why is Khorezmian culture not present in any of Khorezmia? I feel like it should be renamed to "Chagatai" or possibly "Karluk" (but Chagatai is preferable).
 
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Why would I want to build ships in the caspian? Also, does the ai understand that ships built there can't be used elsewhere? Will ships in the caspian count towards a nations overall "naval strength"? For example in eu4 colonies could gain liberty desire if they had a stronger navy than you, if that's still the case (or something similar) will ships in the caspian not count towards that calculation, or could I keep people scared of a landlocked navy?
Maritime presence in Astrakhan market, for example. And yes, we have made it a sea because we have planned that we can get those issues solved with the current game systems, otherwise we wouldn't, and would have stayed as lake/s.
 
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I hope you go hardcore with the Impassable terrain on review, I've noticed you've been toning it down in your other reviews and I've really not liked it, I think impassables should be a major thing and shape warfare! Hoping to see them increase significantly in the Zagros, Caucausus, and future regions.
 
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There are lots of "no-go zones". It is placeholder? (I would love this no-go´s, its is like in real world)
Not a placeholder, it's a conscious design decision.
 
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Maritime presence in Astrakhan market, for example. And yes, we have made it a sea because we have planned that we can get those issues solved with the current game systems, otherwise we wouldn't, and would have stayed as lake/s.
Will I need maritime presence in the adjacent markets if I already own all the land locations?
 
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Good job in general, but where is Toshkent? While not very important at the starting date (cuz the Mongols destroyed it), it was a very important oasis throughout the rest of the games time span, with Timur restoring it to a good standing in scholarship and a very strategic oasis for warfare in central Asia, with Timur dunking on the Golden Horde not far from Toshkent partially because he was able to supply his troops with the water from Toshkent. After 1583, Toshkent also was extremely proficient for coinage in the Khanate of Buxoro, eventually leading it to become one of the most important wealthiest cities in central asia by the end of the game. Simply put, add Toshkent as a location, it doesn't make much sense not to.
 
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@Pavía I suppose you may be still deciding on it but that doesn't sound much right , you should either add the article "the" before the name of the dinasty(Sultanate of the Chobanids) or do like you did for empires and put the the title after the dinasty name in singular(Chobanid Sultanate);
Screenshot_20240913_180631_Chrome.jpg

Personally I prefer the second option(at least for some arabs/muslims), it's shorter and rolls of the tongue better, Ottoman Beylik, Eretnid Sultanate, Safavid Empire...
 
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@Pavía Will there eventually be a population map mode with color and gradient? Also, why is there basically no farmland in this region especially around the Tigris and Euphrates? It seems like farmland is too common in Europe and too rare outside of Europe.
 
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The inclusion of the pagan religions in the Caucasus is tremendous!

The only addition I would suggest is abkhaz paganism. Around 8% of the population now follows Abkhaz native religion so it should maybe be added as a minority religion in Abkhazia.
 
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@Pavia, another question, shouldn't Mesopotamia have more farmlands and grasslands, and climate with more humidity than arid?
Maybe, we have to port some more correct data for that.
 
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There is no such thing as "afghan culture or afghan people" in the 1300's. if you have decided to split it in 3 so you have hazara and tajik then just remove "afghan" and replace it with pashtun since that is obsiosly what you mean by "afghan"
 
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