Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

[Mic199]

There is no such thing as "afghan culture or afghan people" in the 1300's. if you have decided to split it in 3 so you have hazara and tajik then just remove "afghan" and replace it with pashtun since that is obsiosly what you mean by "afghan"

'Afghans' have been around for thousands of years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghans#Etymology

Though I would not mind if they decide to rename to Pashtun to avoid confusion

 

[ArVass]

Great post, but there are parts in the Caspian coast where locations in the Hyrcanian rainforest are Cold Arid climate with lush forests, which doesn't sound accurate

 

[Wildrake]

Why the entire modern Tajikistan Khorezmian turkic? Also, outside of modern Takijistan, Samarqand and Bukhara should be Tajik, those cities have huge Tajik minority even today

 

[Sultan Derk]

Not familiar with the region, but are the wastelands in eastern Iran reflective of reality? I know the area is mountainous and dry, but like those wastelands seem so chunky and thick, especially the northernmost one, like to me, I feel like there should be one or two more paths running through them, but I'm probably wrong

 

[za3tarani]

How would you feel about dividing Iraqi culture into north and south?

i wouldnt divide it. could maybe make an argument that deiralzour + north/center Iraq be seperate from south, but their dialect and culture is same as south Iraq (except maslawi which is closer to aleppo). and there is already a differentiation by religion (sect).

i just hope that, in game, especially for MENA, religion matters more than culture. for instance, turkic and iranic tribes would unite based on religious sects against other turkic and iranic tribes.

 

[moatman15]

Why are all the Circassian location names just russian names? They wouldnt be under russian influence during this period

 

[Patlichan]

I don't understand how Karachay Balkars are the majority in Alania (and how they're called Karachay Balkar, that's a relatively new term even as an endonym). They also were not distinct enough from other Kipchaks to be their own culture at this point. And what's the rationale behind them not being Tengri? What is the Psebay dynasty in Circassia? That's not real. Verzacht of Zichia would be the ruler at this start date. (He was Catholic). We don't know his dynasty so I guess that might be the reason. I think the blue minority in Circassia is exaggerated, it should cover North of Kuban, current map makes it seem like significant amount of Turks lived everywhere in Circassia which is untrue for any historical period, the first mass population change was the Russian colonization after the genocide.

 

[za3tarani]

That list is incorrect.

Kurdish languages:
Kurmanji
Sorani
Pehlewani
Kurdali (can be grouped together with Pehlewani)
Laki (with high Luri influence)

While Zazaki and Gorani are often grouped together with Kurds, they are actually another branch of Northwestern Iranian languages.

Luri languages descend from Middle Persian, they aren't closely related to Kurdish.

its not incorrect actually. sorani gets its name from soran emirate, is a dialect of kurmanji (and basically mix with kurmanji and gorani) that is less then 2-300 years. before that most of kurds in Iraq spoke gorani. this is also why gorani (hawrami) survived mostly in rural places or places far from "central authority"). t

whether you group zaza-gorani as their own language branch doesnt matter, as most zaza-gorani see themselves as kurds, and are seen as kurds by other kurds. but devs dont even want to have more than one kurdish culture, do you expect they make zazaki-gorani their own seperate from kurds?

(btw, i myself am from an ethnicity speaking a zazaki-gorani language/dialect - we dont see ourselves as kurds though)

 

[Patlichan]

Why are all the Circassian location names just russian names? They wouldnt be under russian influence during this period

True, there's a million native names that could have been used instead of the Russian name. Let's just hope the name lists don't have stuff like -ov.

 

[Theo773]

Hey Pavia! Thanks for the maps, i was wondering about the Timurids, since i find it to be a hugely interesting nation to play with, will they become a situation, a chain of events or something different, i recall the good old ck2 great conquerors spawning with death stacks and being absolutely shit at managing them or expanding whatsoever lol, im guessing thats not the aim for an organic game like PC to get a random warlord pop up with a gigantic army and steamroll the region. Maybe this is not the most fitting question for a tinto map but if you can answer on how PC will manage the great conquerors (or more like how will it make it so that they sometimes appear and sometimes do not to provide diverse experiences like the rise of the Manchus, Timur, the Ottomans, the Mughals and whatnot) ill take it !

Thanks in advance and have a nice evening!

 

[Mic199]

Thanks for another great set of maps! I have a few quick thoughts when looking through them.

Particularity, could you have another look at the Circassians? Taking for example take these map from the Circassia and Abazins wiki pages:

Spoiler: Maps

We see that the Abazins should not be on the coast, but more inland (2nd map, in red), while the coast is dominated by Adyghe ("Circassians" in the current setup) and Ubykhia. Personally, I would like to see the Ubykh as a separate culture, but if you feel this is not suitable, it might be better to make these lands Circassian cultured. I also miss the Kabardians in and around the Tatartup location. These could be either represented as Circassian culture, or made a separate culture, up to you.

I don't think the Balkar and Karachay cultures should be separated already in 1337. (not even sure I would separate them nowadays)

In Iran, could you add the Qashqai and the Khorasani Turks?

Great to see Mandaeans are already confirmed Will we also have Yezidi's? I figure the start date is too soon for Yarsanism, but will it appear shortly after the game start?

Lastly, are you adding any Swahili "Zanj" pops? Asking here since Basra was the site of the Zanj rebellion, but the question goes for the whole region, also last weeks map

 

[ibra!6]

Hello,
My suggestions for the cultures are the following:

1) Change Khwaresm's culture to Khwaresmian, not Nogai, as Khwaresm still had its own regional culture and identity in the period
2) Remove Khoresmian as a culture outside Khwaresm. It could instead be replaced by a culture called 'Sart' which would represent the mix of turkic and iranian cultures that inhabited Transoxiana before the Uzbek migrations in the early 16th century. Or you could choose to include 2 or more cultures instead, to show both turkic and iranian elements in the area
3) maybe include the Bukharan jews as a minority

The Political map is perfect, although my only suggestion would be to add the Sufids in Northern Khwaresm, which ruled the area as vassals of the Golden Horde and would continue to pop up in the area's history until 1500.

My sources for all this is Yuri Bregel's An Historical Atlas of Central Asia, which I highly recommend for anything related to Central Asia, as well as History of Inner Asia by Svat Soucek, among others.

I'd also like to ask if there are any plans for a situation or other mechanic to portray the Abulkhayrids' (Shaybanids) conquest of the region in the early 1500s and the uzbek migration to the sedentary regions of Central Asia.

 

[SuperLexxe]

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

View attachment 1187106
And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

---

I would say add two more claimants to the Ilkhanate. In my previous posts I've mentioned Musa Khan who held Baghdad and Southern Iraq, and Hasan Kucek of the Chobanids, who was still in Karahisar in Anatolia at the start of the game. While he technically did not have a Chinggisid puppet yet, he would a year later, when he marched East and defeated the Jalayirids in July 1338, capturing the Imperial heartland, after which Sati Beg and her son Surgan Sira defected to him.

Countries and their supported claimants (puppet or not):

Jalayirids - Muhammad Khan (Hüleguid puppet)
Chobanids - Sati Beg (Hüleguid puppet), later Suleiman Khan (Hüleguid puppet)
Hüleguids - Musa Khan (Independent Hüleguid)
Qasarids - Togha Temür (Independent Qasarid)

While Togha Temür and Musa Khan allied briefly to face the Jalayirids together in June 1337 (until Musa Khan was abandoned in battle and killed in the same month...), they were still pretenders to the same throne

---

 

[lazprune]

Hello devs, I hope you are doing fine!

I see in the culture and religion part that you haven't mentioned the Jews, so here I am in case you forgot.

Georgia is home to a very ancient Jewish community, I therefore suggest adding them and calling their culture Kivruli since it is the name of the Judeo-Georgian language they speak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Jews

Also Kalimi Jews are the Jews living in Persia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Jews

One last thing, please don't forget Mandaeism! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

Have a nice weekend!

 

[conqueror101]

I know many people said this in the Arabia Tinto maps, but I would like to reiterate it. With such a level of Granularity in Project Ceaser, I think it apt For the Island of Qeshm and the island of Hormuz to be separate locations, essentially making the island of Qeshm one location and the islands of Hormuz and Larak another location called Hormuz.

 

[Markusw7]

Steppe Tinto Maps, yes.

What are you doing, steppe Tinto Maps!!!!?

 

[Pescavelho]

The romanization is once again all over the place. I'd recommend the UN (2012) romanization as that one cuts through the idiosyncracies of the Persian script (which has a lot of redundant letters used to render Arabic loanwords) and is more phonetically accurate. ز ,ذ ,ض and ظ, are all written as ⟨z⟩ for istance. Its only flaw is it doesn't distinguish between ⟨q⟩ and ⟨ġ/gh⟩, but that's something you can manually correct. I also prefer ⟨â⟩ to ⟨ā⟩ but that's a purely aesthetic preference (I think Iranians have circumflexes on their keyboard but not macrons, hence why I see it more often).

Very good that you added some new paganisms and (sensibly) gave up on trying to find contrived new names for them and just went with "[Culture] Pagan". I don't quite why Karachay-Balkar paganism is a thing though? Isn't Tengriism effectively already "Turco-Mongol Paganism"?
I don't know enough about Vainakh and Lezgin paganism to wonder if it could be feasibly be merged into "East Caucasian Pagan"? I guess I should be asking for more not less granularity, but I doubt both religions will be very fleshed out anyways, at least on release, so just something to consider.
Mazdayasna/Zoroastrianism's color is very close to Tengriism, I was actually wondering where all the Zoroastrians were since I figured all the blue over Iran was actually Turkic peoples. Assuming that's a legitimate problem, idk what other color Zoroastrianism could be? Maybe white? Encyclopedia Iranica tells me Iranians associated white with purity and light, and Zoroastrians are big on that, so if pure white isn't taken for any other religion, you could use it here.
Why is Ossetia Orthodox? Placeholder? To this day folk religion is pretty prevalent there.

"Afghan" at this time I'm pretty sure refered to Pachtuns specifically rather than all inhabitants of Afghanistan, so no need to rename it, despite what some people might say. "Adhari" could be renamed to "Tat", which is a Turkic term refering to people who speak foreign languages more broadly and Iranian-speaking Azerbaijanis more narrowly (they're still around, mostly in the Caucasus though).

Finally, you guys really need to change the naming order of Sultanates into "[Adjective] Sultanate" instead of "Sultanate of [Adjective]". "Sultanate of Chobanids" is driving me crazy.

 

[nyetflix2]

i wouldnt divide it. could maybe make an argument that deiralzour + north/center Iraq be seperate from south, but their dialect and culture is same as south Iraq (except maslawi which is closer to aleppo). and there is already a differentiation by religion (sect).

i just hope that, in game, especially for MENA, religion matters more than culture. for instance, turkic and iranic tribes would unite based on religious sects against other turkic and iranic tribes.

Oh also, does the religious map look right to you? I was really surprised to see a Sunni majority and significant Nestorian communities in southern Iraq. Is this accurate?

 

[BI0ck]

this might be a bit early to ask, but will the Great Lakes in North America be like the Caspian Sea (where ships can be built in it and navigate it)?

 

[ManusDomini]

Really cool stuff. I have been waiting for this with excitement as both a practicing Zoroastrian and Iranist in training. Early modern Iran is a really fascinating region and EU4 really did not do it justice. Some small nitpicks are that the macron (ā) and circumflex (â) both denote a long vowel in Persian, and as such there is little reason to swap between them. There is no â in Balochestân despite that being phonemically no different from the others, and Baloch is usually pronounced (at least in Persian) with an o, not a u. In addition to this, there should be more a nomadic settlement of Qashqai Turks in southern Iran, especially in Fars Province. There are also Arabic and Persian nomads there, but I don't know if they are significant enough to note. That, unfortunately was the pretty stuff.

It will have its own incest-simulating mechanics, yes, we have allocated time for it in this autumn-winter.

So forgive me if this is merely a joke and I have misjudged the tone, but I should mention that the overfocus on Zoroastrian incestuous practices is a bit absurd. It is one, specific and quite obscure practice belonging to an already obscure, small and persecuted religion. Not to mention, a practice which has both been heavily contested internally and a frequent reason for outside persecution. It is true that khwedodah did exist to some degree, but there doesn't seem to be much reason to make it the whole cornerstone of a mechanic. Some of the most normative legal texts such as Mādayān ī Hazār Dādestān (MHD: Book of Thousand Judgements) do not even mention it at all, and there is no evidence at all to suggest whether it was a normative and practiced "ideal". (Hjerrild 2002)

In post-Sasanian sources, such as revayāt (a formula of legal question-and-answer documents addressed to and from authoritative priests), khwedodah is exclusively mentioned in reference to marriage between cousins (Skjærvø 2013), which is still practiced by some Parsi communities today, who also consider incestuous marriage illegal however. And indeed, such a practice is also found among Bedouin, and much of the rest of the Middle East at the time Project Caesar takes place. In fact, such marriages are also common with the nobility of Europe at this point in time. We can also see that while Adam Olearius who visited Iran in 1635-1639 could confirm the existence of the levirate marriage (an old Near Eastern practice obliging a brother of a deceased man to marry his wife), he was unable—despite searching—to find any evidence for the claims of sons marrying mothers and brothers marrying sisters. The much-cited example of Cambyses marrying his own sisters Atossa and Roxane often fails to mention that much of this source (which also includes the story of his murder of the Apis bull) has been disproven since, and as there is not really any easy way to see how Herodotus could have access to such information, it can easily be dismissed.

Quite by contrast, we do know quite a lot about Sasanian marriage practices, and we are provided in both the Rivāyat ī Ēmēd ī Ašwahistān and the Rivāyat ī Ādur-Farnbay ī Farroxzād that a man who agrees to marry another man's sister in the name of her brother receives the full merit, and that there is no need for offspring in a khwedodah marriage. It is possible, and I stress this because we really do not know, that khwedodah was an active practice once and subsequently fell into decline, and by the Sasanian period was more of a ceremonial declaration. However, we really do not know, as we have no evidence of its existence as a practice beforehand either. As mentioned, it is not mentioned in Sasanian examples of secular law, despite ample sections regarding marriage custom and law, and by the 15th and 17th centuries when it begins appearing properly, it is—as mentioned—clearly attested as cousin marriage, though other revayāt cast doubt on how common this practice was as well. This is ascribed to the ruler not being a Zoroastrian, however, and should thus not be ascribed to internal development.

The practice is often mentioned among non-IRanian sources, so we can assume that it probably did exist in some form, but we should be wary of overstating it, and especially of making it the centrepiece of a small, and frankly dwindling, religion. Anthropological research, to this date, has still not produced a single society in which mother-son or brother-sister incest is commonplace and permissible, bucking the universal incest taboo, so it would be a bit of special pleading for Zoroastrianism to be the one, singular exception to this otherwise universal trend. We cannot even assign a consistent, specific meaning to the term xᵛaētuuadaθa as it appears in the Young Avesta, beyond the original three couplings of Ahura Mazda and Spenta Armaiti, Gayomard and Spenta Armaiti, and Mashi and Mashyani; but such a mythical structure is also paralleled in other Indo-European systems, such as Ouranos and Gaia, or the Rigveda's mention of father heaven placing a fruit in the womb of his daughter (Rigveda 1.164.33).

TL;DR: There is some attestation of Zoroastrian incestuous marriages, but very little, and absolutely none by the time of Project Caesar. From a practicing Zoroastrian: Please don't make us the incest religion again.