Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

[kafkaesquecount]

No natural harbor in Baku? It has a large, sheltered bay and was served as one of the most important Caspian ports during the game's time span (and still today, for that matter).

 

[Pescavelho]

Speaking of which, I don't think Khorasani culture has any special distinctions from the other Persian sub-ethnicities other than having existed in EU4 to be a separate culture. Either split all Persian sub-ethnicities into their own groups (Yazdi, Kermani, Isfahani, etc) or absorb Khorasani into Persian. One argument could be made that Khorasanis are an intermediate between eastern Persians (Tajik) and the western ones but a similar argument could also be made for Hamedanis' relation to Lurs and Kurds and their Fahlavi heritage, etc. Same for every sub-group really.

I assumed "Khorasani" refered to Khorasani Turks. If it refers to Persian speakers it could be merged into Persian yes, the same could be said about Tajiks though, until recently I think most identified either with their region and/or as "Persian-speaker", but I get the need to split Persian up so it's not "too" big.

Speaking of Adhari, Shirvan probably shouldn't be Adhari. The [modern Iranian speakers] (other than Talysh) of that region speak a language that developed from Persian and most medieval sources signal towards the same. In this case I think it's reasonable to create a new "Shirvani" culture for that purpose, since as far as I know their distinction from the rest of the Persians already started in the late Sassanid period. Generally it should be a mix of Shirvani (more in the east), Turkic (Azeri, more in the west) and the local Caucasian peoples (more in the north).

"Adhari" is encompassing all Iranian-speaking Azeris on both sides of the Araxes river, which is why I suggested it be renamed "Tat" since that's a catch-all term refering to exactly that.

 

[Demetrios]

I was wondering how the Ilkhanate was going to be implemented, and I very much like the solution. It's a bit of a problem to implement a state that was a full-on functioning unit just two years before the game, and is now collapsing at a record rate.

 

[ArcticChip]

Shouldn't the mazandaran area south of the caspian sea have some rainforests?

 

[KitChaos]

That's not what we've previously said:

ah thanks for the clarification, sorry to put words in your mouth I just misunderstood. I love the I:R mission trees so im glad to see them return

 

[Ispil]

Kurdish principalities!

• The Principality of Bitlis should exist, ruling over Bitlis, Muş, and Akhlat; rather uniquely should be Kurdish but using the Persian language
• The Principality of Ardalān should rule Sanandaj and the rest of the Šahr-e Zūr region
• The Principality of Bahdīnān should rule Amadiya
• The Principality of Bohtan should rule Cizire and should be Yazidi
• The Principality of Donbolī should rule Hoy and Salmas and should be Yazidi
• The Principality of Hakkâri should be quite sizable, ruling over Urmia, Van, Hosap, Hokkari, whatever that location is between Hosap and Hokkari, and Bargiri
• Hakkâri should also border Bohtan and Bitlis; the territory between these three principalities should hence be given to either Hakkâri or Bohtan , but not Bitlis, with an emphasis on giving Hakkari territory over Bohtan (since Bohtan mostly sees growth under the Ottomans; Bitlis sees growth through Timur, and Hakkari mostly diminishes)
• The Principality of Soran would be quite small, and at this point only own... Qaladiza, given that they conquer adjacent territory two centuries later

Notably even more Kurdish principalities should spring out of this region over time, as a consequence of lack of control and constant conflict. When the Sutayids vacate the premises, their territory winds up either owned by adjacent states or yet more Kurdish principalities, and they aren't sticking around especially long after the start date.

 

[Korsjan Rīkis]

its not incorrect actually. sorani gets its name from soran emirate, is a dialect of kurmanji (and basically mix with kurmanji and gorani) that is less then 2-300 years. before that most of kurds in Iraq spoke gorani. this is also why gorani (hawrami) survived mostly in rural places or places far from "central authority"). t

whether you group zaza-gorani as their own language branch doesnt matter, as most zaza-gorani see themselves as kurds, and are seen as kurds by other kurds. but devs dont even want to have more than one kurdish culture, do you expect they make zazaki-gorani their own seperate from kurds?

(btw, i myself am from an ethnicity speaking a zazaki-gorani language/dialect - we dont see ourselves as kurds though)

OK, I didn't know that Sorani is a rather modern language. What about Pehlewani and Laki then?
That's why I said, they are mostly grouped together with Kurds although they are a branch of their own actually. It's logical that the game would do the same thing, but looking at how detailed other regions of the map are, Zazaki and Gorani cultures should be added.

 

[fredrikslicer]

why are the chobanids called sultante of chobanids and not just chobanids?

 

[GenericUsername1444]

As a Georgian I am astonished as to how accurate the country has been portrayed in-game. Let's just hope some more wastelands are added here and there in the region, since otherwise the Caucasus of 1337 is damn near perfect.

Looking forward to some Imperial LARP...

 

[za3tarani]

Oh also, does the religious map look right to you? I was really surprised to see a Sunni majority and significant Nestorian communities in southern Iraq. Is this accurate?

Iraq only turned majority shia in early 20th century, and there were christian communities central and south Iraq as well.... so i wouldnt doubt it. language-wise, many, if not most, in Iraq spoke aramaic/syriac (even converted muslims) up until 10th or 11th century afaik.

 

[Ispil]

Also Balochistan should not be wholly Baloch just yet; while becoming culturally dominant around this time, the majority of the population wouldn't see themselves as such just yet.

It should also not be unified; it was effectively under the rule of local tribal leaders. There is possibly a ruler of Makran directly (Malek Dinar), but I sincerely doubt their power extended that far. Probably the best way to represent it is to have a significantly high tribal population percentage for a state that is, itself, non-tribal.

 

[Ahmadmltft]

because the people called themselves azeri

No, because Turkoman represents nomadic oghuz speakers.

 

[purplephoton]

A couple years ago I was looking at Central Asia and I have a few suggestions regarding it (though I don't have sources readily available).

-When Mohammad Shaybani conquered the area of present-day East-Central Uzbekistan (so around Samarkand and possibly Bukhara) in the early 1400s, the population was primarily Iranian in the cities, with a lot of Turkic speakers around. The exact nature of the Turkic speakers is not 100% clear, but most likely they would have been speaking a Karluk Turkic language, namely late Karakhanid (a.k.a. Khorezmian Turkic, which seems to be what's represented on the map); the influence of the Kipchak Turkic Shaybanids changed their language to what's today known as "Chagatai" or "Old Uzbek" in the late 1400s and early 1500s.
-Khwarezmians as an Eastern Iranian people would probably still have been around in the 1300s; however, they switched over to using Persian (Western Iranian) in the 1200s. For that reason I think that they should be represented as Tajik.
Additionally,
-There was also a group of Iranian Khwarezmians that migrated to Oroshaza, Hungary, but even if they were still around in 1337, I think it would be better to just represent them as Jasz, since the Jasz language is, like the original Khwarezmian, Eastern Iranian.
-There is an additional Eastern Iranian language in the area, Yaghnobi (descended from Sogdian), still spoken in several parts of Tajikistan, which is closely related to Ossetian (presumably represented by Alan in the Caucasus). Its spread in 1337 is hard to determine since the language wasn't written between roughly 900 and 1900; however, we can make some guesses. Since Sogdian was spoken much more widely in the 800s and is still present today, some Yaghnobi speakers should be present between Bukhara and Khujand (though if I had to guess, I'd say their number was greatly reduced by 1300) in addition to their present-day homeland (roughly around Ayni and Shuman).
-Yaghnobi's other relatives, the Pamir languages, should probably be in the game, but aren't relevant to the region.
-Ferghana was for a while home to come Kipchak-Turkic peoples. Some Russian historians have tried to ascertain the date of their arrival to the region but cannot reach a consensus (Aristov thinks early 1500s, Nalivkin thinks 1600s, Shoniyozov thinks early 1700s; Yusupov and Nomonov suggest that some of them may have been there before the 1400s as well). So it's possible that a few of them may have already been around, but 1) there is no proof and 2) it's unclear which of the Kipchak cultures they would be represented by in the game even if they were there.

This creates some confusion. The original Khwarezmians are now Tajik, while the unrelated Karakhanids are now Khorazmian. There are also Iranian peoples, especially in the large cities such as Samarkand, who were probably Western Persian-speaking (Tajik); however, it's possible that some of them were originally closer to Yaghnobi and just adopted the most common form of the language later.

My proposition is:
-Rename Khorezmian to Karakhanid to avoid confusion with the Khwarezmian language.
-Depending on how cultures work, Karakhanid/Khorezmian should probably change to Uzbek under certain conditions related to foreign influence.
-There should be a Tajik minority around old Khwarezm (Khiva, Urgench, etc), but they should be on their way out (quite possibly <10%). I'm not certain if Nogai should be as widespread around Khwarezm as it currently is, but I don't have any data to support it either way.
-There should be a Tajik majority in cities like Samarkand, Bukhara, etc, as well as some presence in the countryside around them. They should also be present in Ferghana; however, Ferghana Kipchak should probably not be represented in 1337.
-Add some Yaghnobis (possibly even a majority) around Ayni and Shuman or so, and some minorities in the locs between Bukhara and Khujand (especially in mountainous locations such as Kish and Panjakent - there is no hard data on this, but minorities tend to survive better in those regions, especially when hordes are ravaging the nearby flat expanses).
-Add Pamir culture if you haven't already.
-Also, depending on whether culture groups can have subgroups (and I strongly recommend that they be able to, but I'll leave additional comments until the culture Tinto Talks), I would suggest that the Iranian group include several subgroups. These would look something like: Northwestern (Kurdish, Adhari, Talysh, Gilak, Mazandarani, Semnani, possibly Baloch), Southwestern (Persian, Lur, Achomi, Dehwar, Tajik, possibly Hazara), and Eastern (Afghan/Pashtun, Pamir, Yaghnobi, possibly Alan, possibly Jasz, possibly Nuristani).

 

[Baklavaboy the second]

Will you guys be adding kurdish principalities like the Principality of Bitlisi and Ardalan? or atleast other semi autonomous principalities and emirates like the emirate of hewler. Would really make a cool barrier between anatolia and iran. And it would be a shame to not be able to play as kurds in the game

 

[AtomicCrescentRoll]

Interesting…

 

[Ispil]

Also, for some fun, you could throw in the Bakhtiari people as a SoP.

 

[AgathosKaiSophos]

according to me, kurdish should be one culture group and divided between these cultures;
* kurmanji
* zazaki
*gorani (or hawrami)
* yezidi

edit: removed luri, also i am unsure if yezidi should be an ethno-religious group, or just religion

I mentioned before why this is a bad idea. These are linguistic distinctions in dialects and one ethno-religious group of (mainly) Kurmanji-speaking Kurds. They don't say anything at all about cultural or ethnic differences especially during this time when even the difference in lines between a Kurd and a Lur or a Kurd and a Turcoman were very blurred. The reason for this is that Kurds at the time are more so nomadic and semi-nomadic Iranian-speakers who developed distinct cultural similarities and ties than the modern conception of a nation that only becomes relevant by the end of this game's timespan

For reference, the same Kurdish tribe can have both Kurmanji and Zazaki speaking members (e.g. the Koçgiri tribe), intermarriage is as common as it is between the same linguistic group. Likewise, the same tribe can have for example both Sunni and Shi'ite members and so on. Or start out as Ezidi and then some of them (or all) convert to Sunni during the timeframe of the game and so on. A Kurdish culture group and all of these (unnecessary) divisions take away from that fluidity.

EDIT: However I'd like to add, that if there is a separate Kurdish culture group being made, it should be composed of Kurmanci, Zazaki, Gorani and probably Lurs as well, some other reply pointed out they aren't Kurds but when speaking on the matter of culture groups (rather than cultures) I think they should absolutely be included, there is no other culture group that would be more suitable

 

[Linbot#6018]

A couple years ago I was looking at Central Asia and I have a few suggestions regarding it (though I don't have sources readily available).

-When Mohammad Shaybani conquered the area of present-day East-Central Uzbekistan (so around Samarkand and possibly Bukhara) in the early 1400s, the population was primarily Iranian in the cities, with a lot of Turkic speakers around. The exact nature of the Turkic speakers is not 100% clear, but most likely they would have been speaking a Karluk Turkic language, namely late Karakhanid (a.k.a. Khorezmian Turkic, which seems to be what's represented on the map); the influence of the Kipchak Turkic Shaybanids changed their language to what's today known as "Chagatai" or "Old Uzbek" in the late 1400s and early 1500s.
-Khwarezmians as an Eastern Iranian people would probably still have been around in the 1300s; however, they switched over to using Persian (Western Iranian) in the 1200s. For that reason I think that they should be represented as Tajik.
Additionally,
-There was also a group of Iranian Khwarezmians that migrated to Oroshaza, Hungary, but even if they were still around in 1337, I think it would be better to just represent them as Jasz, since the Jasz language is, like the original Khwarezmian, Eastern Iranian.
-There is an additional Eastern Iranian language in the area, Yaghnobi (descended from Sogdian), still spoken in several parts of Tajikistan, which is closely related to Ossetian (presumably represented by Alan in the Caucasus). Its spread in 1337 is hard to determine since the language wasn't written between roughly 900 and 1900; however, we can make some guesses. Since Sogdian was spoken much more widely in the 800s and is still present today, some Yaghnobi speakers should be present between Bukhara and Khujand in addition to their present-day homeland (roughly around Ayni and Shuman).
-Yaghnobi's other relatives, the Pamir languages, should probably be in the game, but aren't relevant to the region.
-Ferghana was for a while home to come Kipchak-Turkic peoples. Some Russian historians have tried to ascertain the date of their arrival to the region but cannot reach a consensus (Aristov thinks early 1500s, Nalivkin thinks 1600s, Shoniyozov thinks early 1700s; Yusupov and Nomonov suggest that some of them may have been there before the 1400s as well). So it's possible that a few of them may have already been around, but 1) there is no proof and 2) it's unclear which of the Kipchak cultures they would be represented by in the game even if they were there.

This creates some confusion. The original Khwarezmians are now Tajik, while the unrelated Karakhanids are now Khorazmian. There are also Iranian peoples, especially in the large cities such as Samarkand, who were probably Western Persian-speaking (Tajik); however, it's possible that some of them were originally closer to Yaghnobi and just adopted the most common form of the language later.

My proposition is:
-Rename Khorezmian to Karakhanid to avoid confusion with the Khwarezmian language.
-Depending on how cultures work, Karakhanid/Khorezmian should probably change to Uzbek under certain conditions related to foreign influence.
-There should be a Tajik minority around old Khwarezm (Khiva, Urgench, etc), but they should be on their way out. I'm not certain if Nogai should be as widespread around Khwarezm as it currently is, but I don't have any data to support it either way.
-There should be a Tajik majority in cities like Samarkand, Bukhara, etc, as well as some presence in the countryside around them. They should also be present in Ferghana; however, Ferghana Kipchak should probably not be represented in 1337.
-Add some Yaghnobis (possibly even a majority) around Ayni and Shuman or so, and some minorities in the locs between Bukhara and Khujand (especially in mountainous locations such as Kish and Panjakent).
-Add Pamir culture if you haven't already.
-Also, depending on whether culture groups can have subgroups (and I strongly recommend that they be able to, but I'll leave additional comments until the culture Tinto Talks), I would suggest that the Iranian group include several subgroups. These would look something like: Northwestern (Kurdish, Adhari, Talysh, Gilak, Mazandarani, Semnani, possibly Baloch), Southwestern (Persian, Lur, Achomi, Dehwar, Tajik, Khorasani, Hazara), and Eastern (Afghan/Pashtun, Pamir, Yaghnobi, possibly Alan, possibly Jasz, possibly Nuristani).

Do you think "Karluk" might be a better name for the Turks in central asia? "Karakhanid" feels sort of inappropriate and confusing since it's just the name of an extinct dynasty that nobody really cares about at this point.

 

[Horse_Archer]

because the people called themselves azeri

not at all, "azeri" is an exonym. Basically no one uses it in Azerbaijan (including Republic of Azerbaijan and Iranian Azerbaijan). Some even consider it an insult. Because this exonym is being used as a tool to manipulate Azerbaijanis, "oh, you are not Turks, you are originally this Azeri/Adhari people who forgot their Iranian language and started speaking Turkish for some reason"

And of course? if some random Azerbaijani person goes to a foreign country and if someone asks him "are you Azeri" he would probably say "yes" without bothering explaining anything.

 

[Streamlet]

Hi I'd like to add some suggestions to the representation of Zoroastrians. The general 20% rule seems like a higher estimate to me, according to Jamshid Choksy, the population of Zoroastrians in Persia had declined to less than 20% by 1250 (Choksy, 1997, p. 93) and Muslims had gained "complete control" over Iranian society by 1300 (p. 143). According to his estimate and the fact that the Ilkhanate had made one of the significant blows to the Zoroastrian population, I would put the 'general rule' closer to 10-15%, which is actually pretty similar to your original estimate!

The Zoroastrian presence in Yazd, Kerman, and maybe the general Fars region should be higher than the rest of Iran, it was already a place with a relatively higher concentration of Zoroastrians, and this would only become more pronounced as the Mongol conquests stimulated the migration of Zoroastrians into Yazd and Kerman, the upcoming bastions of the religion. Also, the Zoroastrian presence in Azerbaijan/Northwestern Iran was likely completely extinct, it hadn't been mentioned since the 11th century, and Ghazan Khan's rule from Tabriz was likely when it had met its final end. (Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians, p. 161-165)

There was also a Zoroastrian presence in Khorasan and Sistan, not just central Iran (Michael Stausberg, Zoroastrianism in Iranian History, p. 176), they only later migrated to Kerman due to Timur's conquests. Speaking of migration, it could be nice for there to be a way for Zoroastrian pops to migrate to Yazd and Kerman in the coming centuries, as it happened historically, but maybe that's not suitable for this thread.

Finally, it could be interesting to see representation of the Dari language (not to be confused with classical Dari or Afghanistan's Dari). Also known as Behdināni, it was an Iranian dialect spoken exclusively by the Zoroastrian community in Yazd and Kerman, unfortunately it's not clear if the dialect was already present in these cities or if it came to be due to the migrations I mentioned, but it'd be nice to see represented (possibly even as an ethnoreligion like the Jewish cultures) as it was as distinct from Persian as many of the other languages/cultures shown in the map.

Thanks for reading, I hope this could have been helpful!