Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

[Horse_Archer]

No, because Turkoman represents nomadic oghuz speakers.

modern day Azerbaijani Turks were mostly nomad back then though, let alone back then, even until recently.

 

[Aramenian]

I think you could add the small Shia kingdom of Hilla/Hillah Ruled by a ruler from the Banu Qatadah dynasty to the game.

Banu Qatadah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quote from German Wikipedia:
Thus, in 1330, Ahmad, the son of the Sharif Rumaitha, was appointed ruler of the Shiite city of Hilla in Iraq by Abū Saʿīd . Supported by the surrounding Arab tribes, he was also able to bring Kufa under his control until he was assassinated by the Jalairid Hasan Bozorg in 1342.

Scherifen von Mekka – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

 

[purplephoton]

Do you think "Karluk" might be a better name for the Turks in central asia? "Karakhanid" feels sort of inappropriate and confusing since it's just the name of an extinct dynasty that nobody really cares about at this point.

Maybe. Problem with "Karluk" is that it would include Uyghurs. Other options based on alternative names of the Kara-Khanid Khanate are possible.
Karakhanids were not a dynasty. It was a confederation of tribes that built a Khanate that lasted until their displacement by the Kara-Khitai, and was probably the source of modern Karluk languages.

 

[dorukdorucu]

If the Caspian is a sea, will it be possible to eventually construct a canal in the Don-Volga basin to allow ships to cross-over between the Black Sea and the Caspian? It was considered by both the Ottomans and the Russians at various points in the 1700-1800's, though it was eventually deemed economically unfeasible.

And if not, is that because of a technical limitation of the game engine (the need to simulate navigable rivers etc.) or some other design choice on your part?

 

[Monty is staring at me]

We already have it, per country, although we're still working to improve it.

Hey Pavia, would you consider a population density mode (population of location divided by number of pixels of location, or something like that)? I think most players don't care about a nation population map mode, as that can be handled via ledger, but it would be interesting to see what the population density around the world is, and it would probably have a less problematic color gradient

 

[Mulleks]

Arent we right about the time of Timur, will there be events to spawn important events or will it be like CK3 where it's up to us to RP that Timur existed?

 

[ibvfteh]

We already have it, per country, although we're still working to improve it.

I think there should be a worldwide solution in some way. For me it is impossible to read all those numbers. I believe a logarithmic scale and more colours in the palette(red, yellow, green + blue, purple, white) can fix all problems with population map modes. It will also be quite intuitive foe players of eu4 as it will be continuation of development mapmode.

 

[Mulleks]

Maritime presence in Astrakhan market, for example. And yes, we have made it a sea because we have planned that we can get those issues solved with the current game systems, otherwise we wouldn't, and would have stayed as lake/s.

So can we build a canal there like in the suez?

 

[Lehnaru]

1. Yes
2. No
3. Nogai

Do Syriacs represent Assyrians?

 

[SuperLexxe]

Arent we right about the time of Timur, will there be events to spawn important events or will it be like CK3 where it's up to us to RP that Timur existed?

Timur was born 1-2 years ago in-game. You get to play him by picking Chagatai.

 

[The Last]

not at all, "azeri" is an exonym. Basically no one uses it in Azerbaijan (including Republic of Azerbaijan and Iranian Azerbaijan). Some even consider it an insult. Because this exonym is being used as a tool to manipulate Azerbaijanis, "oh, you are not Turks, you are originally this Azeri/Adhari people who forgot their Iranian language and started speaking Turkish for some reason"

And of course? if some random Azerbaijani person goes to a foreign country and if someone asks him "are you Azeri" he would probably say "yes" without bothering explaining anything.

Don't know about azerbaijani ppl but in irans azerbaijan ppl do call themselves azeri they have been calling themselves azeri for centuries in fact

 

[Linbot#6018]

Maybe. Problem with "Karluk" is that it would include Uyghurs. Other options based on alternative names of the Kara-Khanid Khanate are possible.
Karakhanids were not a dynasty. It was a confederation of tribes that built a Khanate that lasted until their displacement by the Kara-Khitai, and was probably the source of modern Karluk languages.

Wouldn't Karakhanid also include altishahr Turks? In fact, I am prepared to argue that central asian Turks and altishahr Turks should be the same culture, especially since the latter shouldn't be called "Uyghurs" at all since nobody called them that until the 19th century.

 

[Ahmadmltft]

not at all, "azeri" is an exonym. Basically no one uses it in Azerbaijan (including Republic of Azerbaijan and Iranian Azerbaijan). Some even consider it an insult. Because this exonym is being used as a tool to manipulate Azerbaijanis, "oh, you are not Turks, you are originally this Azeri/Adhari people who forgot their Iranian language and started speaking Turkish for some reason"

And of course? if some random Azerbaijani person goes to a foreign country and if someone asks him "are you Azeri" he would probably say "yes" without bothering explaining anything.

Most reasonable turkic nationalist.

 

[Ispil]

Wait, this TM includes Transoxiana.

You have made a grave mistake, because I have suggestions.

---

First, an image:

Apologies for the quality; taking photos of a book can be rather challenging.

My source for all of this is The Rise and Rule of Tamerlane (Manz, 1989).

Firstly, the Kartids should absolutely not hold Balkh at this time. That territory was taken in raids/grants in 1320 or so (it's rather complicated, but we know that by 1334 it absolutely was within the Chaghatai sphere). Similarly, they should also not hold Qandahar or Qalat. The location of Qandahar (not the region, just the location) should belong to the Mihrabanids. Quetta (the region) should not (we have no documented evidence of Timur sacking Quetta or Kalat, but do for his sacking of Qandahar).

Now, with that out of the way, what should the Chaghatai Khanate look like? Here's a map:

1 are the Arlat, who are subject to 2, the Apardï. 3 are the Besüd, which might be outright independent (there's very little info so it's hard to say; if nothing else if they're a subject it's rather tenuous, and I cannot say the extent of their eastern border without a full map). 4 are the Qara'unas; the regions of Qandahar (not the location!) and Quetta belong to the Negüderī, a subject of theirs. The Apardï might also be a part of the Qara'unas; we don't know for sure. 5 are the indigenous Shahs of Badakhshan; 6 are the Suldus, 7 are the Khuttālanī emirs. 8 are the Barlas, 9 are the Yasa'urī, and 10 are the Jalayirs. The Arlat, Barlas, Jalayir, and Suldus are Turco-Mongolian tribes ruled by aristocratic clans. The Yasa'urī, Apardï, Khuttālanī, and Negüderī are troop formations that obtained political power and became entities in their own right. They passed power within themselves, but not necessarily from father to son. They held hereditary rights to an army and a territory to rule. There are also armies that didn't hold land (Qipchaq) and tribes or remnants of tribes that held no land of their own, though for the most part those were absorbed into other tribes but held a distinct identity (though no political power). I ommitted them for simplicity. The Jalayirs and Suldus are much more prone to fracturing compared to the Barlas.

Notably, the Chaghatai Khanate is in the middle of a collapse; by 1347 the eastern half will break away into its own thing (Moghulistan) and the western half should form into a Chaghatai Ulus IO with a nominal "ruling" tribe (whichever one is running the show with associated puppet khan) and an ability to unify the whole thing. Moghulistan should also be able to be a player in this, attempting to reunify the whole thing by force.

Historically, Timur would rise to lead the Barlas, unify the western half, and... well, you know the rest.

 

[purplephoton]

Wouldn't Karakhanid also include altishahr Turks? In fact, I am prepared to argue that central asian Turks and altishahr Turks should be the same culture, especially since the latter shouldn't be called "Uyghurs" at all since nobody called them that until the 19th century.

It probably would, but the alternative is a confusing name scheme, so idk.

 

[goodcigar]

I find the /r/AskHistorians subreddit to be quite helpful in getting historical info from qualified people.

 

[peter814]

theres too much adhari in caucasia

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Is the dh in Adhari pronounced like th? Sort of like Sindarin?

 

[Ironkanuckle]

I would like to suggest that the Mandaeans, notable for being one of the world's oldest surviving dualistic religions to this day, and also known for its possible connections to ancient sects like the Essenes and the early Gnostic Christians, and a potential mention in the Quran, be represented in the regions of Southern Iraq and Southwestern Iran.

According to the article “MANDAEANS iv. COMMUNITY IN IRAN” in the Encyclopædia Iranica, the largest population of Mandaeans were in cities such as Baghdad, Basra, and, historically, ʿAmāra on the Tigris, An Nāṣeriya, Suq-al-Šoyukҳ on the Euphrates, and in Qurna. In the region of Iran, the Mandaeans historically had a sizable population in the cities of Khorramshahr and Shushtar.



Sources:

1. Jorunn Jacobsen Buckley, "MANDAEANS iv. COMMUNITY IN IRAN," Encyclopædia Iranica, online edition, 2012, available at http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/mandaeans-4 (accessed on 13 September 2024).

 

[FleetingRain]

View attachment 1187150

Why have you decided to use squiggly location borders instead of adding corridor locations?

By now, I've fully accepted that corridors are Sahara-only to represent how they are *utterly* uninhabitable.