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Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
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Colored Wastelands.png

The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

Ilkhanate.png

And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
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Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
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Provinces:
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Areas:
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Terrain:
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We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
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You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
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There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
Religion.png

Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
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This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
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This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
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The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
 

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Makes sense. As an update to that, I'd say that the northern stretch of territory I have in the map that I presented (Hinis, Malazgirt, etc.) should belong to the Hakkari as well, but they slowly recede from the region over time. My source is this, describing the history of the principality that ultimately fills the void that they leave behind.

So then the updated map would be this:
View attachment 1187461
With some amount of giving Arlat and other territory that I just gave to the Hakkari, to the Sutayids for the Hakkari to acquire once the Sutayids leave.
Okay, this is my final proposal:
Untitled.png

6 belongs to the Sutayids, but when they leave the picture it goes to 2.
 
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Looks fien,but when viewing sources you kept in mind,that after Timur conquered lands,he persecuted population to the extent of wiping out cities?

1.In shaki,shirvan and north of Khachen must be significant population of caucasian albanians,or alwanians.
simple check on wikipedia gave this
Screenshot 2024-09-14 at 07-39-46 Church of Caucasian Albania - Wikipedia.png

Screenshot 2024-09-14 at 07-50-33 Church of Caucasian Albania - Wikipedia.png

I dont know if this is reliable source,but there certainly must be georgian,armenian and caucasian albanian/alwanian pops there.
2.Why there are majorities of muslims in Khachen and Syunik?
Isnt this illogical,they are vassals of Jalayrids,muslim country,so Jalayrids would not put significant muslim population under christian rule,
i can't imagine muslims there be happy to be ruled by christians.
Better remove them,or make insignificant minorities.
3.After invasions,nearby christian population in large quantity fled to georgia,is georgia supposed to be so monogamous?
4.There was sigificant population of assyrians near lake Urmia,are they present?
5.Population quantity near lakes and Caspian is too small,is it supposed to be like that,and can you give sources for it?
Also why such climate maps-sparse even near lakes,and mesopotamia(between Tigris and Euphrates) and arid or cold arid,
it seems inaccurate.

Also idea for splitting syriac culture to aramean and assyrian cultures-make population east of river euphrates assyrian,and on west aramean,
giving minorities near river.
 
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Also while thinking about Caucasian Albanian/Alwanian Church,can one IO be subordinate to other?

For example can someone as eastern roman empire conquer rome,and make pope subordinate to patriarch of constantinople?.... :)
 
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Why is "Susha" not named "Sushi", since it's armenian majority during the game's time period (and seems armenian-culture controlled at the start), shouldn't it have the armenian name instead of the azeri name?
 
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You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.
Could you develop `what types of ships ? I assume it's somethng different than a fleet of three deckers (rather fishing boats I guess)
I know there were trade routes going through the caspian sea, but I never heard of any military fleet there, be it from the russians or the hordes
 
I feel there should definitely be more Sindhis and Saraikis/Punjabis in the Kacchi Plain, and they should 100% be spread further North. Even today, the Kacchi Plain all the way up to Sibi is around 20-30% Sindhi and 15% Saraiki. I imagine with the Kacchi Plain being under Sindhi Samma rule at game start, and with the Balochis only recently arriving into modern-day Pakistani Balochistan by 1337, there would be an even larger precent of Sindhis then there, and an even smaller percent of Balochis as the migration is still a very much in-progress process.
 
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As Georgian I have a few notes to make about this map
1- Lata (in Abkhazia) should be Svan. Svans call this gorge Dali and Population there have always been solely Svans, till they were expelled in 2008
2- There should be a strong Mingrelian and Pontic Greek minorities in other parts of Abkhazia, perhaps even some Laz and Jews. Abkhazians solely lived in the woods and villages while most of craftsmen, nobles and traders were of different ethnic backgrounds and lived in coastal towns, even in 1897 Russian Empire national census only 4 Abkhazians lived inside town of Suhkumi. Even noble surnames in Abkhazia were Georgian or Mingrelian, like: Anchabadze, Shervashidze, Chichua, Emukhvari, Chabalurkhva, Marshania...
3- Qax (in eastern Georgia) must be Georgian majority and minority Lezgi. Even today 10% of population in Georgian, back than it would have been much higher, Azeris came there after Dagestanis, who migrated there in early XVII-th century. there are about 50 Georgian historical Georgian Churches in this part of Azerbaijan, even today most of them date back to around this time are later
4- There should be Udi majority in Shaki and Vartashen and minority all around modern day Azerbaijan
5- Omalo should be part of Georgia, it never belonged to Khundzakh lol, I don't know where u guys get that from
6- Same it True about so called "Jarekhi" which should be properly Called ether "Stepantsminda" or Kazbegi where is Dariali pass located, Georgans guarded Dariali pass from ancient times just so north Caucasians didn't invade, while u guys are straight up saying it was not inside Georgia
7- Georgia hasn't been part of Ilkhanate since 1327 as king George V "the brilliant" of Georgia stopped paying taxes to Ilkhanate after they executed his friend Choban Noin in 1327

P.S. attached map is of residence of Ethnic Georgians inside Qax district today after 400 years of Cleansing, Semi-Slavery and ill treatment from Muslims. My mothers family name is originally also from Qax, I didn't know she belonged to adhari culture group lol.
Hereti_Georgians_Map_Koryakov.svg.png
 
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You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.
Is this the first time within all Paradox Games?
 
This is more of a content suggestion rather than something that would be with the map, but a situation idea: we have a situation for the Italian Wars. Why not a situation for the Ottoman-Persian wars? The entire 16th and 17th centuries were dominated by wars between the Ottomans and Safavids over control of Kurdistan, Georgia, Armenia, the Caucasus, and Iraq. The various small states caught up in the wars frequently switched sides (one of the wars was triggered by the Principality of Bitlis switching sides from the Ottomans to the Persians) and the whole thing was a very expensive, bloody affair that caught up every player in the region. Obviously there's a rather critical religious element in history.

So, I'd say that starting in the Age of Discovery, a major power in the Anatolia region and a major power in the Persia region can trigger the... Kurdistan Wars? Not really a good name that isn't just "Ottoman-Persian Wars" but obviously that won't always be true. Anyway, it'd be triggered when the major powers in question are of differing religions (in the sense that they can declare holy wars on each other, so if Persia is Zoroastrian or Anatolia is Orthodox or whatever else, that all still works). All those small, independent states in the region get the opportunity to flip sides, play one side against the other to try to remain dependent, theoretically side with a third regional power if there happens to be any state in the region strong enough to be able to at least hold its own against either side. The big empires in question (historically Ottomans and Safavids) also in winning any particular war get to redistribute the land towards that of their subject principalities/whatever in the region as a way of asserting control (rather than ruling things directly).

It ends when the region is under near-complete control by either side, or if a third party has managed to boot out the both of them out of the region.


I'unno, it sounds fun. Creates conflict in the region, uses a situation as a driver for the creation of more Kurdish principalities and the redistribution of their land, provides fantastic gameplay opportunities for those playing in the region (whether a major power trying to gain power over the area, or a power in the region itself resisting on both sides). Has a solid basis in history, is likely to come up more often than not (assuming the Safavids are more likely than not to establish a Persian state and Anatolia more likely than not to unify; the latter seems indicated as likely given previous dev remarks and I can only assume the former would be as well), and even works nicely for various alt-history scenarios (resurgent Byzantines can replace the Ottos; a Zoroastrian Persia can replace the Safavids; a powerful Georgia or Armenia gets the chance to resist both).
 
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1. Are Alania, Shaki, Syunik, Gilan and the Sarbadars related to eachother or the Golden Horde? They have a very similar colour to both eachother and to the Horde which makes them look like they are vassals to it.
2. Are you planning to fix the long form of dynastic country names such as "Sultanate of Chobanids"? It should probably either be the "Chobanid Sultanate" or the "Sultanate of the Chobanids"
 
To be fair, the only color that is similar to another is that of the Injuids; the subjects of Jalayirids get similar coloring, as those of the Sulttayids.
Reading on a phone, I would say that the Sutayids and Jalayirids are also similar (not identical, but absolutely similar), and whatever is on the other side of the Sutayids appears to repeat the colour of the Jalayirids. The wastelands being a similar colour also doesn't help the presentation.

Overall I think the lighter tints used in Project Caesar makes the tags less distinguishable than what they are in EU4. Less distinguishable is equivalent to worse in this case.
 
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Just a small note about Georgia: According to Ronald Grigor Suny, in reference to Berdzenishvili, Georgian King Giorgi V (sometimes also labelled as VI) 'stopped paying tribute to the Il-Khan, thus ending the period of Georgian-Mongol cooperation.' Therefore, Georgia should by 1337 no longer be a part of the Il-Khanate.

-Ronald Grigor Suny (1994): The Making of the Georgian Nation, p. 44.
 
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