• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
Countries.png

Colored Wastelands.png

The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

Ilkhanate.png

And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
Locations.png

Location 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png


Provinces:
Provinces.png


Areas:
Areas.png


Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
Harbor.png

You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
Religion.png

Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
Markets.png

This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png

Population 5.png

The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
 

Attachments

  • Religion.png
    Religion.png
    3,2 MB · Views: 0
  • Cultures.png
    Cultures.png
    3,1 MB · Views: 0
  • 86Love
  • 85Like
  • 5
  • 3
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
Daquq and Kirkuk are pretty big locations. I'll add them. Someone else can suggest if there is any base to splitting them.

Also adding Kalhor and the changes to Sutayids and Mihrabanids.

The case of Sutayids owning Mosul does leave a question for who held Central Iraq? On the map it would be a sizeable exclave for the Jalayirids, for now
One more confirmation that the Sutayids held Mosul, this time from The Decline of the Ilkhanate and the Mamluk Sultanate's Eastern Frontier, page 84:
Untitled.png

Honestly everything that I read indicates that Hasan held Iraq, so I think it very much should be an exclave.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:
This looks amazing and I cant wait to get my hands on it! Just one thing I noticed and that is that the idea of Afghan nation/culture peoples is a modern concept compared to the start date. Many Afghans (which the correct name is Pashtun) where seperated and never unified until the late 18th century after the saffavid collaps. I appreciate Paradox doing their research in terms of repersenting other ethnic/cutlural groups in that Khorasan/Afghanistan region. But Afghans are considered to be more in the east around the sulaiman ranges instread of the south ie Kandahar and Farrah areas. Also Tajiks should be the majoritry of Kabul and sorounding areas. Pashtuns moved into modern area and as far as Herat when the Afghan state was estabished after the Afsharid Empire collapse. Also Hazaras are under repersented in the south and western areas(of Afghanistan) seeing as they would be massacred in the late 18th century reducing their population and allowing for Pashtun settlers to move in. There should also be a massive minority of Turkic(depending on how they're repersented in Central Asia) peoples in the major cities due to the back to back Turkic Invasion of Ghaznavids/Seljuks/Khwarismians and mongols after - which the Hazaras are decendents of. I think a good book to read on this is Baburnamah or the memoirs of Babur (timurid prince and founder of the Mughal dynasty) he mentions alot about Afghanistan.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:
The interesting bit with the map suggestion so far is that it makes divvying up the Sutayid territory rather easy: their Anatolian territory goes to the Aq Qoyunlu (perhaps a bit too early but whatever, close enough), their Arlat territory goes to the Qara Qoyunlu, and their Mosul territory goes to the Jalayirids (at least, until the Qara Qoyunlu manage to subjugate all those Kurdish principalities to their south and eventually conquer Mosul). That puts the Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu on the map in appropriate locations such that they can build up their powerbases (the Qara Qoyunlu historically would subjugate the Kurdish principalities to their south before conquering Mosul in 1370; the Aq Qoyunlu would slowly but surely conquer and subjugate all the opposing states in their region, taking out the Ayyubids, Artuqids, and Erzurum, before eventually expanding further eastward into Bitlis and the like, before eventually taking out the entirety of the Qara Qoyunlu).

If you play as the Sutayids, this is probably better handled as an event that triggers both the Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu to pop up and go to war with you if you wish to stick around as the Sutayids, or you get to pick which one of them you want to play as instead (letting you switch to the Aq Qoyunlu or Qara Qoyunlu and continue forward from there).
 
Last edited:
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
OK, I'm from Georgia, and I'm a big history buff.
Here are some rather small details I would like to mention regarding the Caucasus region.
I'll go in order of the maps.

If you guys need sources, I can easily provide them for most of these remarks.
But most of what I say here is already easy to find.
It would just take ages if I went and collected them all.
But I'll try to mention them.

Countries:
1. Samtskhe

View attachment 1187578
Samtskhe should be bigger. The atabegs of Samtskhe controlled basically all of Tao-Klajeti, i.e. south-western Georgia.

Something like this:
Split Khikheni, into Ajara and Shavsheti and give the latter to Samtskhe.
View attachment 1187582
Or just give it all of Khikheni.

Btw, I'm pretty sure we call it Khikhani or Khirkhati.


2. Armenia

Zakarid Armenia being a vassal of Georgia at 1337 is a bit debatable.
It's simply not quite clear with the info we got and odds are even if they were vassals this arrangement was quite unstable.
Especially when you mix the relations with the Mongols.

3. North-East Georgia

View attachment 1187589
It doesn't make sense to have these provinces outside of Georgia, both politically and in their regional assignments.
Especially considering you already have them culturally being Georgian.

View attachment 1187590
Jariekhi, a.k.a. Khevi, was Part of Georgia and later fell under the Kingdom of Kakheti, after the dissolution of the kingdom into multiple petty kingdoms and principalities in 1490.
Same with Omalo, a.k.a. Tusheti.

So the regions should be something like this:

View attachment 1187685

And one small remark would be to make the borders of some of these locations less rough, square and jutting out awkwardly.
alongside changing the wastelandss a bit.
Like maybe something like this:

View attachment 1187602

Terrain:

4. Western Georgia


There are still lots of wetlands in western Georgia, even after quite a few swamps got drained during the last century or two.
Issue is that some of these locations cover areas that have both wetlands, hills and normal flatlands.

But at the minimum I would definitely change the location of Poti to wetlands, since even today a big chunk of the land there is a swampy forest.


I don't think it makes sense for Ushguli to be reachable from the two neighboring locations.
The passages are hard to cross, not sure an army crossing them makes much sense.
Especially when you have Ts'esi only reachable from Tsageri, for comparison.
View attachment 1187654
View attachment 1187655


This crossing between eastern and western Georgia is not that simple.
It regularly became impassable during winter.
We got many accounts of how difficult it was to cross this place from many different periods.
During one of his 8 invasions of Georgia, Tamerlane got stuck in western Georgia during winter because of this pass.
View attachment 1187681


Maybe add some sort of crossing here
View attachment 1187656
But overall I would definitely recommend the usage of Imperator rome style mountain passes in the Caucasus.


5. Eastern Georgia - Medium Priority

Some things here are a bit tricky, again because of how many different geographical features some of these locations have.


Alaverdi, should at least be Hills. in reality it is a combination of mountains, 2 separate plateaus, hills and flatlands. as you can see below:
View attachment 1187625


If Dusheti is a plateau, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to make Mtskheta mountains. The area contains mostly low lying areas with mountains/high hills separating them.
Hills Probably fit the best.
View attachment 1187629

Same with Tbilisi, even though the southern bit of the location is relatively flat, the area in the north and surrounding the city itself has very high hills.
View attachment 1187650


The areas of Khornabuji should be flat.
Aside of the castle itself, the area is very flat.
Bodbe should then probably be changed to hills.

Not sure about Hereti, probably better to leave it as flatlands, even though, it ain't really flat.
View attachment 1187638
View attachment 1187641


I'm not sure why you made these locations into Plateaus.
Qakh should be flatlands and the rest maybe Hills, if not flatlands.
View attachment 1187642

View attachment 1187649

In general this mountain chain reduces mobility significantly, even though it isn't as high as the others.
But I'm not sure how you could represent this in-game.

View attachment 1187657

6. Addition of Farmlands - Medium Priority

Adding at least a single farmlands province in western Georgia, somewhere like Kutaisi, might make sense.

This area got deforested through human activity.
So if you're going to set it to grasslands, it probably should be changed to farmlands.
View attachment 1187659

This area is the biggest agricultural area of the country.
Many sources and abundance of architectural monuments point to it being economically quite well off.
If you'll add any farmlands to the overall region, it should be here.
View attachment 1187660

7. Harbors

Harbors should definitely be added/improved on the eastern coast of the black sea.
View attachment 1187661

These were especially relevant for the Caucasian slave trade, but I'm not sure how or even if you are planning on representing those demographic processes.
Especially since it wasn't much of a thing around this start date, but it really ramped up soon after.


Culture And Religion:

8. Eastern Georgia/north-western Shirvan


Qakh should be Georgian and Orthodox.
The demographics of that place changed a few centuries later, but even then it was because of people from Dagestan migrating there and establishing small states.

Another suggestion would be to add the Udi culture to this general area as a minority, and maybe even as a majority in some locations.
Maybe something like this:
View attachment 1187665

Also maybe add a minority of Nakh in Omalo, since even to this day some Tushetians (Tsova-Tush) speak a nakh language called Batsbi.


9. North-western Caucasus

The placement of some cultures is a bit off.
The Abazins should be north of the Abkhazians.
The Ubykh lived west of Abkhazia instead.
View attachment 1187669

Maybe add Khabzeist religion as a minority to Abkhazia too, although they have a different name for those beliefs.
Also adding Kartvelian paganism to the mountain areas of Georgian and Svan cultures would make a lot of sense.
Many pagan practices survived to this day, even if most have been syncretized with Christianity.
Pretty sure back then it would have been much less so.

Raw Materials:

10. Eastern Georgia

Hereti was a breadbasket.
I think switching the goods of Hereti to wheat and of Alaverdi to wool, would be much more accurate.
Especially since wool instead of wheat in Alaverdi makes more sense too.

And I would also suggest adding silk to Gremi.
Silk production was one of the reasons that area became so economically well off.
Until the Persian invasions later on, where the invaders specifically cut down the Mulberry trees the silk worms lived on.

Markets:

11. Eastern Georgia


I know this is done automatically, but this area being in the Astrakhan market makes zero sense.
View attachment 1187677
It should either be in the Tabriz market, or a separate Tbilisi martket.

Absolute gigachad.

მუხლს ვიდრეკ.

პეპე.jpg
 
  • 6Haha
  • 1Like
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
Locations in Iraq is big and
Rivers should determine the size and shape of the locations not just for Iraq for all world
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
Given that the game does not have dynamic sea tiles, and the Caspian's sea level varied throughout the game's timespan from being lower than it is today to being higher than it is today, I think the best option would just be to leave it the way it is in the game right now.
 
Hello, I know I should've written this earlier, but I have just now gathered all of the data in order to post it here. As a researcher that currently works in the Danube Delta and a cartographer, I want to bring attention to some problems about the portrayal of the Danube Delta in the game (visually). I know that this might be an early version of "Project Caesar" and that this could get adressed at a later date, but I want to make sure that it will be displayed accuratelly by the game announcement.

In the 14th century, the Danube Delta was mainly marshlands and floodplains with lakes, 90% of which would get flooded at least 6 months per year, which made it a difficult place to live in, especially in the winter. Fishing was the main way of living in there and trade was crucial for the settlements to survive (which would be interesting to see how it is implemented ingame). The ethnic composition surely was different than nowadays, with a handful of ports in the mouths of the Danube to the Black Sea (Sulina, Sfantu Gheorghe and Chilia), which were initially inhabited (allegedly) by the greek traders that were present there since Antiquity, and local vlachs (more to the mainland). Russians and other slavic people would come to the Danube Delta later on, close to the 18th century for russians, but it is possible that early bulgarian tribes would've came there even as early as the 12th century (although they would be in small numbers).

Regardless of the ethnic situation, physically the Delta was very different too, some lobes not being developed, such as the Sf. Gheorghe and Chilia one, and Sulina being more in the deep parts, as can be seen in the following graphs and maps:
View attachment 1187748


























Chilia lobe only changed in the 18th century, the more accurate one for the timeline being the red one as shown in the map.

View attachment 1187750

Sulina lobe was much longer, it leveling out in the last thousands of years, being close to the 1ka line in the current timeline, notably having much more secondary river mouths too as seen by the blue lines.

View attachment 1187751

Sfantu Gheorghe lobe barely breached the coastline 2 thousand years ago, by the current timeline being on the 1ka line.

View attachment 1187753


Here are the stages of the Danube Delta evolution since its' formation, the more accurate form for the time being the one described by the stages of C2, S, SG1 and D1.

Also for anyone interested, I've got some interesting maps on the same stages:

View attachment 1187755

Big thanks to the Marine and Fluvial Research Centre from Sfantu Gheorghe with which am in close contact with for the article provided, and to all of the researchers that I work with closely for bringing light to the Danube Delta.

If you guys need more help make sure to contact me privately, I have some more deltas and coastlines that I am studying and relatively know their recent history.

Raz is out​
Post this in the Carpathia and Balkans map thread so it gets seen in the right context.
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
One more change I would suggest, based on these passages:
View attachment 1187735
View attachment 1187736
I think the area around Mosul (the locations of Mosul, Balad, Tal Afar, Akre, and Rawanduz) should belong to the Sutayids. When the Sutayids bail, that chunk of territory then falls to the Jalayirids.

The region was never especially held tightly by them, which is why the Qara Qoyunlu can show up in 1370 and just seize the place without much in the way of opposition.
I was literally going to say the same thing about Mosul might be controlled by Sutayids because in a few sources I read that though I didn't researched much but now I'm confident about that.

1000324426.png


And here it talks about Mosul controlled by Sutayidi emirs:

1000324429.png

1000324439.jpg

Same thing with Erzurum. Erzurum currently controlled by Eretnids but it actually controlled by Sutayids.

In the screenshot above of the PDF I shared it writes about Erzurum too. Here is also writes Erzurum falls into Sutayids hands in 1336: https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/erzurum

1000324441.png
1000324448.jpg
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:
I would actually go further than what my suggestion currently is: I would say that the Chaghatai Ulus IO should already exist. The Chaghatai Khanate would be the "leader" of that IO (and have nominal ruling over all the various tribal and non-tribal entities I listed off). However, any tribal leader (historically the Qara'unas) can wage war against the current leader to boot them out and install their own puppet khan to rule the western half of the Chaghatai Khanate instead. The current Chaghatai Khans can attempt to reassert their authority over the western half (which was already spiraling out of control since 1334; their rule was only nominal in 1337 and in a decade not even that) and absorb all the tribes of the western half into their state, while the western half can instead unify into an empire of its own (historically under Timur).

In the event of the western half unifying without rule by the eastern half, the eastern half should be renamed to Moghulistan instead of Chaghatai Khanate. Or do the rename in the event that one of the tribes of the eastern half manages to take over in the east (historically the Dughlats).
I would also say that for this IO, there should be a few key interactions. One (mostly taken by Moghulistan trying to assert authority, though theoretically this was doable by anyone in control) is to execute the ruler of one of the tribes, diminishing their power but also pissing them (and everyone else) off. You weaken their power, but also risk building much resentment and triggering a rebellion. Additionally, it should be possible to "assert authority over other tribes" (historically it was through the moving of the capital, but it's easier to handle it this way), which starts steadily reducing the power of other tribes but also starts lowering their loyalty/opinion. Qazaghan's son Abdullah did this (moved the capital to Samarqand) and was ousted; Amir Husayn did this (moved the capital to Balkh) and was ousted. In other words, asserting authority is the "power play" that indicates that you're going to start centralizing power, and if the other tribes don't stop you, you'll eventually centralize the whole thing and consolidate absolute power.

Timur did this, but Timur also figured out how to avoid getting killed: always be at war, for when your enemies are fighting alongside you, they cannot mount opposition against you back home. Hence why Timur's early years were him going to war with Khiva and going to war with Moghulistan in alternation, never being at peace for almost a decade. In other words, when you're the leader of the Ulus, being at war builds positive opinion with those tribes which you're fighting with, countering the effects of asserting authority reducing opinion and also keeping those tribes allied with you from being able to declare war on you or attempt to murder you (war being the option if their power is weak; murder if their power is strong). With everyone in the IO but you having sufficiently diminished power, you get the option to consolidate power, annexing all the tribes and forming a unified empire.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
I was literally going to say the same thing about Mosul might be controlled by Sutayids because in a few sources I read that though I didn't researched much but now I'm confident about that.

Same thing with Erzurum. Erzurum currently controlled by Eretnids but it actually controlled by Sutayids.

In the screenshot above of the PDF I shared it writes about Erzurum too. Here is also writes Erzurum falls into Sutayids hands in 1336: https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/erzurum

View attachment 1187787View attachment 1187788
Yes, Erzurum should belong to the Sutayids. So should Bayburt, and when the Sutayids cease to be, both should go to the Dukharlu, a tribe of Turkoman nomads. Ispir, meanwhile, should belong to Georgia. Tercan should probably belong to the Sutayids as well, so that it isn't an exclave. However, when the Sutayids leave, Tercan goes to the Aq Qoyunlu.
Untitled.png
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Day 1 of posting this image until y'all make this map mode and start posting it, Pavía (it would be so awesome)
townsandcities.png
 
  • 8Like
  • 4Haha
Reactions:
Yes, Erzurum should belong to the Sutayids. So should Bayburt
Eretnids taked Bayburt in 1334, so it should stay in Eretnids.



1000324491.jpg


1000324492.jpg


Ispir, meanwhile, should belong to Georgia.
Yes, Samsthke Atabegate actually. Vassal of Georgia.

Tercan should probably belong to the Sutayids as well, so that it isn't an exclave.
I'm not sure about Tercan but Erzincan should not. It was controlled by Eretnids.


1000324482.jpg
 
  • 5Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Eretnids taked Bayburt in 1334, so it should stay in Eretnids.



View attachment 1187795

View attachment 1187796


Yes, Samsthke Atabegate actually. Vassal of Georgia.


I'm not sure about Tercan but Erzincan should not. It was controlled by Eretnids.


View attachment 1187793
Alright,, so piecing it together... Sutayids would own Erzurum and Tercan. When they go away, Tercan goes to the Aq Qoyunlu and Erzurum goes to the Dukharlu. Dukharlu eventually join the Aq Qoyunlu, take Bayburt with help of the rest of the Aq Qoyunlu, flip sides to the Qara Qoyunlu when Qara Yusuf conquers Armenia, has some scuffles with the Aq Qoyunlu, eventually rejoin, and then become a constituent part ruling both Erzurum and Bayburt before winding up subject to the Ottomans.

That sound right?
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Sutayids would own Erzurum and Tercan.
Erzurum yes, I couldn't find anything about Tercan, maybe it can be found in some thesis PDFs but I'm not really want to research about that.

Other than that, I don't know much and researched about the following events, just starting situation.
 
Erzurum yes, I couldn't find anything about Tercan, maybe it can be found in some thesis PDFs but I'm not really want to research about that.

Other than that, I don't know and researched about the following events, just starting situation.
I think for the sake of the current setup, it should belong to them lest Erzurum is just some exclave that they can't reach.
 
I'm not sure how the naming system of countries works, but from previous tinto maps, as an example, Morocco isn't named the Marinids. But if i compare that to something like the Jalayirids, they use their dynasty name. I understand the latter doesn't really have a accurate non-dynastic name, but still, it seems like a little bit of an inconsistency, and i hope you can elaborate on this, but what happens for instance if the Jalayirids lose their last Jalayirid ruler? Do they stop existing or keep the name?
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I'm not sure how the naming system of countries works, but from previous tinto maps, as an example, Morocco isn't named the Marinids. But if i compare that to something like the Jalayirids, they use their dynasty name. I understand the latter doesn't really have a accurate non-dynastic name, but still, it seems like a little bit of an inconsistency, and i hope you can elaborate on this, but what happens for instance if the Jalayirids lose their last Jalayirid ruler? Do they stop existing or keep the name?

Right now the Jalayirids are more like a tribe / mobile military command, made out of the Jalayirs and other nomadic forces (notice the other Jalayirs in Transoxiana, and the Suldus, whom the Chobanids are related to). Though a few decades later the Jalayirids would become more like the sedentary muslim countries and become a dynasty, rather than a tribe. So at that point i'm not sure what their name would be, if they lost their "Jalayirid" dynasty.

In Crusader Kings 2, the country name would automatically be the same as the dynasty name, if you were an Islamic character. That might be interesting.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: