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Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
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The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

Ilkhanate.png

And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
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Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
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Provinces:
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Areas:
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Terrain:
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We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
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You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
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There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
Religion.png

Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
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This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
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This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
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The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
 

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Kurdish principalities!
Notably even more Kurdish principalities should spring out of this region over time, as a consequence of lack of control and constant conflict. When the Sutayids vacate the premises, their territory winds up either owned by adjacent states or yet more Kurdish principalities, and they aren't sticking around especially long after the start date.

Btw as you mentioned Hoy before, this is pretty interesting:

Chinese/Kurdish hybrid nation in Donboli? :p

"Nomads as Agents of Cultural Change - The Mongols and their Eurasian Predecessors" (2014):

1726350275937.png


"The Mongols and the Islamic World" (2017):

1726354656364.png
 
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Btw as you mentioned Hoy before, this is pretty interesting:

Chinese/Kurdish hybrid nation in Donboli? :p

View attachment 1187813
At very least we better get some Han pops there lol. And from the sound of it they might actually be the majority culture in that location.
 
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Has anyone on the team watched Rosencreutz's video 'EU5: Development, Divergence, and Simulation'? It compares EU4, Eu5, and the book 'Guns Germs and Steel'. It's ideas around the New World are interesting. Here is the link:
It might be worth including that the video seems to be very critical of Jared Diamond's work and isn't just uncritically regurgitating it. I assumed the latter at first, but was pleasantly surprised by the video.
 
Eretnids taked Bayburt in 1334, so it should stay in Eretnids.



View attachment 1187795

View attachment 1187796


Yes, Samsthke Atabegate actually. Vassal of Georgia.


I'm not sure about Tercan but Erzincan should not. It was controlled by Eretnids.


View attachment 1187793

I wouldn't trust any source that contains a statement that Abu Sa'id died in 1334, since it's pretty much 100% certain he died in 1335. In fact, really late in 1335 (December 1st), so there's not much room for doubt there. That alone makes any source saying it happened 1334 suspect in its accuracy for anything else it might say.
 
How would you handle Chobanids? Make them rebel and split off from within the Jalayirid tag rather than having them be on-map in 1337?
An ABC doesn't need to own any land, so they can be made to exist without land but just a sizable army that they have to march over from Anatolia.
 
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How would you handle Chobanids? Make them rebel and split off from within the Jalayirid tag rather than having them be on-map in 1337?

I think the Chobanids should start as an unlanded Army-Based-Country somewhere around Karahisar in Anatolia, under Hasan Kucek. His army would grow significantly via events (+ temporary food consumption reduction modifier), eventually coming to point when the Chobanid family members serving the Jalayirids begin defecting over to him (most notably Pir Husyain, who was cousin of Hasan Kucek, and appointed governor of Tabriz, the royal capital). This would either debuff the Jalayirids, or drain their manpower immensely.

Considering how significant the defections were, it wouldn't be out of place for the Jalayirid in-game army itself to get cut down in size and move over to the Chobanids

Upon victory, the Chobanids would be able to capture a large chunk of land, as they did historically. Establishing themselves as the #1 contender for the Ilkhanate after the battle of Alataq in July 1338.
 
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I think the Chobanids should start as an unlanded Army-Based-Country somewhere around Karahisar in Anatolia, under Hasan Kucek. His army would grow significantly via events (+ temporary food consumption reduction modifier), eventually coming to point when the Chobanid family members serving the Jalayirids begin defecting over to him (most notably Pir Husyain, who was cousin of Hasan Kucek, and appointed governor of Tabriz, the royal capital). This would either debuff the Jalayirids, or drain their manpower immensely.

Considering how significant the defections were, it wouldn't be out of place for the Jalayirid in-game army itself to get cut down in size and move over to the Chobanids

Upon victory, the Chobanids would be able to capture a large chunk of land, as they did historically. Establishing themselves as the #1 contender for the Ilkhanate after the battle of Alataq in July 1338.
I see. Definitely seems more interesting than having the Chobanids just be already present at least! Could be complicated to get right though.
 
I see. Definitely seems more interesting than having the Chobanids just be already present at least! Could be complicated to get right though.

It certainly sets a timer for the Jalayirids:
  • The Khorasani forces in the East, under Togha Temür of the Qasarids have just captured Soltaniyeh, which is 4 days of walking away from the capital of Tabriz
  • Musa Khan of the Hüleguids would join the Khorasani campaign 2 months later in June 1337
  • Meanwhile Hasan Kucek is getting ready for a massive push from the West
All the while the Jalayirid forces don't seem that strong either. The sources say that Hasan Buzurg of the Jalayirids retreated to Arran when the Khorasani took Soltaniyeh.

When he faced the combined army of Togha and Musa in June 1337 at Maragegh, it is mentioned that Togha abrubtly withdrew from the battle, leaving his hated vizier Ali Qushji and Musa Khan to be captured and executed. Who knows how it could have gone if Togha had commited? But it seems he had other plans.
 
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Erzurum yes, I couldn't find anything about Tercan, maybe it can be found in some thesis PDFs but I'm not really want to research about that.

Other than that, I don't know much and researched about the following events, just starting situation.
In hindsight just give Tercan to Eretna when the Sutayids cease to be. Makes things simpler.
 
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Some notes:

  1. The Iranian Plateau is portrayed as similarly inhospitable as the Central Asia to its Northeast. WAD?
  2. The Qara Qorum is a plateau? I always thought it was either flatlands or hills.
  3. Chechens are still pagan? Figured moslem missionaries reached them by the start date.
  4. Still Buddhist Sindh? Weren't they under Moslem rule since the Ummayads at least, enough to be like, 60% Sunni or more?
 
I wouldn't trust any source that contains a statement that Abu Sa'id died in 1334, since it's pretty much 100% certain he died in 1335. In fact, really late in 1335 (December 1st), so there's not much room for doubt there. That alone makes any source saying it happened 1334 suspect in its accuracy for anything else it might say.
I disagree. If we would be talking about a thesis, yeah can be. That site is one of the largest maybe the largest historical encyclopedia in Turkish and founded by Turkey's Directorate of Religious Affairs state institution. You find many information from this site that you normally need to dig theses. In site's articles, below the article it gives many references from different sources. That 1334 probably been a writing mistake and the wikipedia link I gave probably taken the information from there since I saw many wikipedia articles copies the information from that site.
 
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Though Representing the Tajiks and the Hazaras in Afghanistan is definitely a step up from EU4's uniform "Afghan" culture, Calling the Pashtuns "Afghan" is a little strange. Technically speaking, the term Afghan refers to people who live in Afghanistan, which includes several different ethnic groups including Pashtuns. They should really just be called Pashtun or maybe Pashto rather than Afghan.

Also, perhaps some of the other minority groups in Afghanistan could be represented as well.

a4jwyrhqhmw71-2268689845.jpg
 
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I love the choice to have the full name of the government if the name is big enough on the map but I think countries named after dynasty shouldn’t be like [Government Flavorization] of [Dynasty in Plural] so instead of Sultanate of Chobanids I think it should be Chobanid Sultanate. I would also like this for dynastic titles in CK3.
 
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A couple more polities I found



Khalkhal

"The Mongols and the Islamic World" (2017):

1726361923893.png


Hamadan

"Oirats in the Ilkhanate and the Mamluk Sultanate inthe Thirteenth to the Early Fifteenth Centuries: TwoCases of Assimilation into the Muslim Environment" (2016):

1726364065307.png



 
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A couple more polities I found



Khalkhal

"The Mongols and the Islamic World" (2017):

View attachment 1187844

Hamadan

"Oirats in the Ilkhanate and the Mamluk Sultanate inthe Thirteenth to the Early Fifteenth Centuries: TwoCases of Assimilation into the Muslim Environment" (2016):

View attachment 1187850


I'm not sure how much power they held in that territory proper, though it's also worth noting that things did... not end well for them.
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So, one of those many ephemeral states in the region that'll disappear in very short order if things go as expected.

Akrunj is regarded jointly with Isan Qutlugh, and can probably be best regarded as either ruling in about the same region or over the same territory jointly. They both rebelled and sided with the Oirats, both converted to Sufism, and both were executed at the same time.
 
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What I would like to see is a “rump state” mechanic; after a major power, say France, loses a certain amount of territory and important cultural and administrative locations I.E. Paris, or has too low control over too large an area, a disaster could trigger. If the player/AI is able to solve the disaster they should get buffs that help with reclamation/consolidation of territory; in the result of failure the country should lose cores, vassals, and perhaps release new tags. Most importantly, the “falling” tag should change from “the kingdom of France” to say “the duchy of Valois” and lose the benefits of being France.

I think this would help with the “believable world” immersion. At the EU4 start date the country that comes to mind is Mongolia; after the collapse of the yuan dynasty the mongols founded the “northern yuan” dynasty called “Mongolia” in eu4. There is no current mechanic in EU4 that represents this and I think PC would stand to benefit from something like this if it doesn’t include it already.
 
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A few comments re Abkhazia

Culture

We don't really know where the "border" between the Abkhaz and Mingrelian cultures was at that time. The first information we get is much much later (17th century travelogue of Evliya Celebi). And even this account is very brief: when he says that a big "Abaza" tribe spoke Mingrelian, does he mean that they spoke *mainly* Mingrelian or that they *also* spoke Mingrelian in addition to their Abkhaz/Abaza language? This is a rather fraught topic given the ongoing Georgian-Abkhaz conflict.

I think that making Bedia mixed is a good idea. I agree with this post (post-29879226) that Lata should be made mixed Abkhaz/Svan even though we have even less information about this remote area. In the 19th century it was populated by the Abkhaz (who were then expelled to Turkey by the Russians) and Svans.

Harbours

It looks like currently there are no good harbours there. I'm not sure this is the case, Sukhumi has been a pretty important port since the ancient times and also during the medieval period and later, controlled by the Genoese at some point.

Mountains

Possibly a pass from Abkhazia to the North Caucasus (Lata <> Mamiya Kala) should be added. Armies and merchants have used this route since Antiquity (see On the importance of the "Misimian's" - Kodori Route in the 1st-6th Centuries by Eliso Bagaturia)

Resources

Not sure about fish as the main resource in Sukhumi. According to Maan the main exports were livestock and derived products, lumber, wax and wild game. And of course slaves, at times this was the largest "export good". Not sure how this can be represented in the game. This was not the plantation slavery as in the Americas. For many Abkhaz selling themselves to Turkish masters was a way to make a good career in Constantinople and a lot of Ottoman officials had such a background.

Religion

Well, it's complex. The Abkhaz even now have functioning pagan shrines and a lot of sources mention that the veneer of Christianity (and also of Islam, later) was rather thin. The Abkhaz and Circassians are related and the latter have "Khabzeist" religion in the game. Khabze is more of a worldview and ethical codex (think Confucianism or Bushido). The Abkhaz have their version of it called Apsuara but it's not that different from Khabze. I agree with post-29879269 that the Abkhaz should be mixed Orthodox-(West Caucasian Pagan religion)
 
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