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Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
Countries.png

Colored Wastelands.png

The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

Ilkhanate.png

And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
Locations.png

Location 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png


Provinces:
Provinces.png


Areas:
Areas.png


Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
Harbor.png

You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
Religion.png

Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
Markets.png

This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png

Population 5.png

The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
 

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Sorry for maybe reposting this i think i messed something up since i dont see it in here (if you dont want to watch the whole video skip to 26 min there he starts talking about the juicy stuf)

Later edit pls watch it maybe the thumbnail seems like it cant be trusted but it can be he has all source's and they're highly credible since this is now mostly public knowledge just a bit obscure

Hello, dear paradox devs yesterday i saw a video that had some realy juicy info about southamerica specificly the amazon rainforest for long we all assumed there wasnt much to see for games and for real life but in the last few years with new technology some scientists made some truly fascinating discoveries that would be an amazing addition to march of eagles 2 or as you still call it project ceasar because if all the info is taken together in 1300 Hundreds the amazon still schould be pretty full of large native citys sadly mostt locations are unknown and im not sure if you want to include civilizations of wich we dont know the location, religion, culture, or even theyre names but still this would be fantastic if the info we have is used to fill in the balnk spaces my source is a YouTube video from a credible youtuber who has provided the sources and has gone in depth on the topic i think they would still enrich the game especially southamerica for native gameplay and colonial gameplay please check the video out this needs to be in the game
Man sorry this sounds like im talking about aliens no no some complex civilizations that lived there defenitly still some in the 1300 hundreds
 
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Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
View attachment 1187105
View attachment 1187262
The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

View attachment 1187106
And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
View attachment 1187107
Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
View attachment 1187108
View attachment 1187109
View attachment 1187110
View attachment 1187111
View attachment 1187128

Provinces:
View attachment 1187112

Areas:
View attachment 1187113

Terrain:
View attachment 1187114
View attachment 1187115
View attachment 1187116
We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
View attachment 1187118
You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
View attachment 1187135
There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
View attachment 1187136
Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1187121
This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
View attachment 1187122
This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
View attachment 1187123
View attachment 1187124
View attachment 1187125
View attachment 1187126
View attachment 1187127
The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
The sources are credible and it can be fact checked with a quick Google search this is not a scam or someone who posts Missinformationen if you want to see the juicy stuff skip to 26 min


Hello, dear paradox devs yesterday i saw a video that had some realy juicy info about southamerica specificly the amazon rainforest for long we all assumed there wasnt much to see in the form of citys or civilizations like the mayas for games and for real life but in the last few years with new technology some scientists made some truly fascinating discoveries that would be an amazing addition to march of eagles 2 or as you still call it project ceasar because if all the info is taken together in 1300 Hundreds the amazon still schould be pretty full of large native citys sadly mostt locations are unknown and im not sure if you want to include civilizations of wich we dont know the location, religion, culture, or even theyre names but still this would be fantastic if the info we have is used to fill in the balnk spaces my source is a YouTube video from a credible youtuber who has provided the sources and has gone in depth on the topic i think they would still enrich the game especially southamerica for native gameplay and colonial gameplay please check the video out this needs to be in the game


 
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Added greater granularity to the suggested Ilkhanate map, with additions from:

@Ispil - Kurdish principalities of Bitlis, Ardalan, Bahdinan, Bohtan, Donboli, Hakkari & Soran under the Sutayids and Jalayirids (presumably), & Breakdown of the Chagatai Khanate (I couldn't fit the whole Transoxiana map)
@Baklavaboy the second - Kurdish Emirate of Hewler in Erbil
@ibra!6 - Sufids in Khwarazm, under the Golden Horde
@Aramenian - Hillah in South-Western Iraq, under Musa Khan (presumably)
@Linbot#6018 - Breakdown of Gilan



OLD
View attachment 1187539



NEW
View attachment 1187640



Newly Added (ignore the colours):

View attachment 1187542



With locations:

View attachment 1187568


Just a question why doess your previous maps that you posted like #80 seem to have more polities than your latest one?
 
Just a question why doess your previous maps that you posted like #80 seem to have more polities than your latest one?

As the note on my 1st post says, I always update the map on 1st page to be the most recent one. If I had to update every map I've posted here whenever something gets added, it would be a lot of pointless work
 
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1000076770.jpg
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Here is some information on South Oghuz and Southwestern Mongolic. These excerpts are from Routledge compilations, one on the Mongolic family, the other two from the Linguistics of the World series on Northern Asia. While Afshars are newcomers in Iran the Aynallu, Sonqorlu and Qashqa'i should probably live in southern Iran's Fars, Kerman, Hamadan and Shiraz, as well as in Kabul. There should also be plenty of Mongols in Kandahar, Ghur and Herat.
 

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According to Ali Asger Cemrasi, a Khalaj historian, Khalaj Turks (who previously migrated from Syr Darya to Khorasan, and then to Sistan, Zabulistan and India and are related to the Gilzai of Herat in Afghanistan) had a branch that migrated to Mughan and then to the Levant area. This branch later joined Timur and returned to Iran's Qom and Markazi ostans, which is their current residence. The Khalaj were extremely important due to being the rulers of Delhi and have their own, very distinct Turkic language with archaic features of Old Turkic preserved. The ones in India and Herat were later Pashtofied (though Sistan, Herat and India should have Turkic Khalaj at the game's start) and some of the ones in Iran later migrated to Qashqa'i territory in Fars. The ones in Levant returned to Iran with Timur's army and settled in their current region of central western Iran, alongside their kin from that region and Mughan.

To summarize, Syria, Palestine and Lebanon should have some Khalaj at the start, who will migrate to Rayy and Qom with an event upon Timur's coming. There should also be Khalaj in Sistan, Herat and Delhi too. They should have their own culture, related to Karluk (whom they lived with before Islam) or Azeri (also Turko-Iranians). Hope this is implemented into the game!

Sources:

The Khalaj People and their Language by Sonel Bosnalı

Khalaj in the Mirror of History by Ali Asger Cemrasi

İran'da Yaşayan Halaç Türklerinin Sosyo-kültürel Yapısı (Sociocultural Structure of the Khalaj Turks Living in Iran) by Belal Hatemi Khajeh (master's thesis)

I would love to provide and dig up more information if the developers want so!
Also see this message of mine from an earlier TM. There should be Arghu or Khalaj culture in Qom and Markazi and Rayy, but they lived in Levant until Timur came and brought them back home. Many also lived in Sistan and Herat. They should also be the ruling culture of Delhi.
 
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No remnants of Mongol's with Tengri or Buddhist faiths on that map (or are their numbers too small)? Peter Jackson has quite a detailed discussion on the topic in "from Genghis Khan to Tamerlane" (the only times he uses those names is the title and the first page when he explains why they are wrong).

He mentions that the conversion of the Ilkhanate was much more a continuum and much less abrupt than often portrayed. He talks about how the faith of the Mongol ruler would often switch when the crown changed hands as evidence that the mass of Mongols had diverse faiths. He doesn't credit that they are converting back and forth each time the ruler declares for a new religion (and I hope neither does project Ceasar). He also mentions that rulers taking a second Muslim name is hardly conclusive evidence of conversion, particularly when they sometimes still follow Mongol Yassa that conflict with Muslim teaching (like Halal). There are also records of outsiders referring to them as infidels, for example (much later than this map) when writing of Babur's conquest of Delhi. He believes that protecting Muslims from these was one of Timur's advantages.

He also makes a point about how the Eastern part of the Chagatai were much more likely to be Buddhist than Muslim. While the center of that effect is off map surely there is some mixing.
 
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First of all Iraq and or mesopotamia have never been apart of the persia region and second of all wich religious minorities are there in iraq (mesopotamia) as at the time there were jews christians mandeans yazidiz and more and it isnt like they only are in iraq now there is like proof that they were in iraq the jews were only expelled in the 40s and were in iraq since the babylonians forced them to move to babylon the christians have been in iraq for atleast 1000 years since the start of the game same with the mandeans
 
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correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't there be a few provinces here with Jewish ethnic groups, especially in the Babylon region? While most certainly not a majority, they should still be in these regions. I don't see any Mizrahi jews anywhere on the map, which is odd because they would be there!
 
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correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't there be a few provinces here with Jewish ethnic groups, especially in the Babylon region? While most certainly not a majority, they should still be in these regions. I don't see any Mizrahi jews anywhere on the map, which is odd because they would be there!

Probably too few to be visible, but we know Mizrahi is a culture in the game. I am more worried about all Eastern non-Arabic speaking Jews being lumped under this catch-all umbrella...
 
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One more suggestion (also can be included in @SuperLexxe's map): Merv should be a country in itself, a vassal of the Kartids:

Untitled.png

(Makhan being a village just outside of Merv, though later passages indicate that their control included Merv proper). They're a rather significant figure, in that Timur would oftentimes (when ousted from the rest of the Ulus) hang out here and get help from nearby powers (Kartids, Jaun'i Qurban) to make his comeback.

Also just for context, it's not like Timur was just swept to power. He was ousted from the Chaghatai Ulus several times over, by Moghulistan, or Amir Husayn. It was an absolute struggle for him to gain control, and also a struggle to keep it. Once he solidified his rule, then he went and conquered the whole place, but getting to that point was by no means trivial.

"Oh, Timur is now in control!" is absolutely not how things should go. You need to fight for it.
 
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There are several issues I want to address. Çıldır is the modern Turkish name of this province, the correct and Historical Georgian name is Tao. Oltu and Tortum are also modern Turkish names, instead, There should be Oltisi and Tortomi(I also want to say that other locations are named correctly). The kingdom of Tao which played biggest role in uniting Georgia,and province that is called Çıldır in Georgian should be Tao to prove this you can just search Georgian or any source that speaks of Kingdom of Tao or that region for example we can take “ქართლის ცხოვრება”(Kartli's life) which is The work of an anonymous Georgian author of the 11th century, in which the history of Georgia of the 8th-11th centuries is narrated and it explains unification of Georgia and role that Kingdom of Tao played.

We can say that during this period Abkhazians had the same culture as Georgians. I can understand why they separated Megrelians, svans, and Laz because they are a subgroup of Georgians, they speak Georgians and have their language as well. But in the 14th century, Abkhazia wasn't like that, the cultural shift started in the 16th century, also why separating Abkhazian culture as different doesn't make sense is the last Georgian kingdom that was fully integrated was the kingdom of Kakheti (which was integrated in 1104 year. In comparison kingdom of Abkhazia was one of the unifiers of Georgia wich happened in 1008 also it needs to be said that the integration of Kakheti was forceful so it doesn't make sense why Abkhazian culture and not Khaketian,both were Georgian speaking people with Georgian traditions but if both were to make cultures than practically there would be no Georgian culture)you can check out:

Mariam Lordkipanidze work THE ABKHAZIANS AND ABKHAZIA

And also why is tbilisi material wheat when in eu4 it was dyes?
 
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I've been looking forward to this one!

Of course, most of the questions/suggestions I bring up can be found in this thread about the Ilkhanate (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/the-ilkhanate-in-april-1st-1337.1700322/)

1. Will the other former states of the Ilkhanate be able to pick a side or hang back to see how things play out?
2. Will there be any events that could enable the Chobanids to become a 3rd faction?
3. As someone else mentioned earlier, I feel like there should be a location for Tehran considering how it will be important during the timeline of the game. It would be just east of Karaj and just northwest of Rey.
4. Iskandar II of the Baduspanids had just taken advantage of the fracturing Ilkhanate to conquer south of the Alborz mountains from Qazvin to Semnan. Those areas should be under Baduspanid control. (https://iranicaonline.org/articles/baduspanids)
5. Speaking of that area, I feel like there should also be a location between Kojur and Amol. Possibly Royan or Nur. I'll look into this more for locations when I can.
 
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