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Tinto Maps #19 - 20th of September 2024 - India

Hello everyone, and welcome once again to another Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at India! Yup, a whole subcontinent… Exciting!

Let me say a foreword before I start sharing with you some beautiful maps. Some of you may wonder why we decided to make the entire Indian subcontinent in just one DD, instead of spreading it a bit. There are two reasons for that. The first is the political situation: the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq. You will soon see that it rules over more than half of the region, approximately; so splitting that polity into several DDs would have felt weird.

The other is that we felt that a more cohesive approach made sense in this region, as it’s sooo diverse compared to others, that the way we approached it, both for its setup and content, was from the generic to the particular; therefore, we think that it will also help us more when we tackle the review of the region. Speaking of that, don’t worry much about the time available to prepare suggestions; you may already know that we have a backlog of several regions, and therefore weeks, before we hit the Indian review, so you will have plenty of time to research and prepare them. In any case, as it’s a massive task (we know it firsthand), we’ll let you know a bit in advance when we plan to start the in-depth review of it, so you have time to wrap it up.

As a final say, I just want to mention that an old acquaintance of the community, @Trin Tragula , now Design Lead in CK3, helped us to map a big chunk of it. Thanks, mate! And now, maps!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.png

As I just mentioned, the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq, extending through the Indo-Gangetic Plain, including Bengal, and to the south, throughout the Deccan. There we have its toughest contender, Vijayanagar, a county that is a bulwark of Hinduism. Other important countries around it are Orissa and Sindh, but much smaller countries generally surround Delhi. You might wonder how it would be possible to stop Delhi from completely controlling the region, then. For this, two things are affecting its capability to achieve it. The first is the base game mechanics: ruling over so many different cultures and religions with low control will be hard. The second is a Situation that involves the Fall of the Sultanate; if Delhi wants to succeed, it will have to fight back against rebellions, which involves the potential independence of the Bengalese countries or newborn ones such as the Bahmanis, and the multiple Indian states around it, which are ready to take over it.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.jpg


Locations:
Locations.jpg

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Yes, we are making some adjustments to the coloring of the mapmodes!

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

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Provinces 4.jpg

Areas:
Areas.jpg

The bug is still there, yes… The area that is to the southwest is Malabar.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Here we have a new type of topography: Atolls. We added it some months ago, as we worked on finishing the map of the Pacific Ocean, and it will be the last one added to the game.

Development:
Development.jpg

A new map mode is born! Here you have the development of India. The most developed place is Delhi, which is part of the fertile Gangetic Plain.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg


Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

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Not an entirely new map, but a glorious one. We chose it to be the one to present how the different cultures could be present in the game for a reason.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

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India is the birthplace of numerous religions, and that needs to be reflected in the religious map. The main religion is Hinduism, but don’t be deceived by its homogeneous look, as it will be quite deep feature-wise. We also have Buddhism, which is at a low point, after some centuries of prosecutions. Mahayana is a majority in Sindh, although that's not completely exact, as an earlier form of Buddhism was practiced there; we’re also not 100% convinced about it being a majority, as some sources and accounts set the Islamization of the region to be completed under the Ghaznavids, in the 11th and 12th century, while others delay it until the 14th century - we followed the later approach, but we're very open to feedback in this specific matter. Another form of Buddhism is Theravada, which is the most practiced religion in Sailan. Some interesting minorities present in the region are Jains (yellow stripes), Nestorians (the pink stripe in Malabar, which portrays the ‘Saint Thomas Christians’), Jews (which have their own separate culture, ‘Kochini’), and several Animist confessions, of which we’ve already split Satsana Phi, the traditional religion of Tai people, and Sanamahism, the religion of Meitei people. Oh, although it’s not strictly part of the region, the light blue stripes to the north is Bön religion.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

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India was for some time in the period the wealthiest region of the world, one of the main reasons being that it’s incredibly rich in very different types of resources, including some of the expensive ones. That will make for a very interesting economic gameplay.

Markets:
Markets India.png

There are several market centers in India that we think portray well the situation in 1337: Kabul (yes, it’s in Afghanistan, but it’s one for the area of Kashmir), Delhi, Khambat, Calicut, Pulicat, Varanasi, and Chittagong.

Population:
Population.jpg

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India has a big population. To be precise, around 95M pops. Delhi is the second largest country in the world in population, with 41M pops, which makes it a behemoth, with very serious governance challenges. I’m also showing this week the progress we’re making with the coloring of the population mapmode; the stripes on several locations mark that they’re overpopulated, as they have more pops living on them than the pop capacity available (something that may be reviewed, as balancing very densely populated regions such as India or China is really challenging).

And that’s all for today! We hope you enjoyed this massive Tinto Maps. Next week we will be taking a look at the Steppe. Which one, you might wonder? Well, the one ruled by the Golden Horde, from Ukraine in the west to Mongolia in the east. Cheers!
 
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Sindh shouldn't be predominantly Buddhist. It was continuously ruled by Muslims since 8 century and Buddhist was in decline in both Sindh and Punjab all through 8-13 centuries. At least make it split between Hindu, Buddhist and Islam.
 
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yeah, there sure be for sure much more Islamic pops north&northwest of Tapi river. Over a century of systematic purges of Hindus and Buddists by Delhi sultanate at it's peak, while fightining a long bloody war with Mongols and sufferering constant raid by other Turkic tribes, did it's thing. There is a reason why Development map mode looks like it does....

But biggest problem with the map are RGO-s.

Where is Sugarcane????
India was huge Sugarcane producers and had refined sugar crysalization methods since ancient times.
Or is sugarcane considered a Spices?
sugar is there! it's a very light green. There's some on the coast in gujarat
 
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Will there be a special mechanic to model the failure/unwillingness of the Muslim countries to convert India to Islam?
That's part of the core mechanics of managing multicultural and multireligious countries.
 
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also, are Tibet and Burma included in the feedback for this TM? Or would that be more suitable in a future thread?
They will be covered in separate, future Tinto Maps.
 
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Is Bahmanis unplayable at the start date, or is it possible to start out as them before they actually pop out of Delhi?
They are unplayable at start, but you can decide to play with them through an event starting as Delhi.
 
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The Assamese moved from North Bengal to current Assam during the period, that's why.
It is believed that Assamese culture developed its roots over 750 years as the country of Kamarupa during the first millennium AD of Bodo-Kachari people assimilation with Aryan which is debatable as the idea of Assam as an entity was not present. The first 300 years of Kamarupa was under the great Varman dynasty, 250 years under the Mlechchha dynasty and 200 years under the Pala dynasty. The records of many aspects of the language, traditional crafts (silk, lace, gold, bronze, etc.) are available in different forms. When the Tai-Shans entered the region in 1228 under the leadership of Sukaphaa to establish Ahom kingdom in Assam for the next 600 years, again a new chapter of cultural assimilation was written, and thus the modern form of Assamese culture developed. The original Tai-Shans assimilated with the local culture adopted the language on one hand and on the other also influenced the culture with the elements from their own. Similarly, the Chutiya kingdom in eastern Assam, the Koch Kingdom in western Assam and the medieval Kachari and Jaintia kingdoms in southern Assam provided stages for assimilation at different intensities and with different cultural-mixes.

Literally from Wikipedia^

North Bengal is not the birthplace of the Assamese culture - Assam is. North Bengal was the centre of Bengali cultural Identity from the Buddhist Pala Kingdoms all the way upto the Ilyas Shahi Sultanate.
 
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Man, I don't know how to feel about the new map styles...is it me or they look more difficult to read? @Pavía could you post the same maps but with old styles to make a comparison plz?
Not really... It's better if you give us direct feedback on why they look more difficult, and what may we do to improve them

I agree, the granular map modes (locations, raw materials, topography,...) should imo have a flat color scheme, and not have borders. They are detrimental for extracting information at a glance. (How am I supposed to get anything from the development map mode?)

Also, for the development map mode: please shy away from the green-yellow-orange color scheme. Us color blind people cannot use these :)
Exactly like this feedback, thanks!
 
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sugar is there! it's a very light green. There's some on the coast in gujarat
Daaamn, good catch! And after hard looking I even managed to spot 3 far south, but not on the coast, but a bit inland.....
Still for such a massive landmass with the fact that the sugarcane cultivation was the cashcrop before cashcrops were a thing. And a first foundation stone for setting up a colonial empire by the Spanish and Portogesee....
I think there should be more sugarcane in India
 
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Kafir should be changed to Nuristani as the term is too broad for what it seems to represent. Also was Gilgit ever Hindu? I thought it remained Buddhist until it was islamized.
 
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I hope it will be impossible to save Delhi/Yuan without at least losing half of its territory,

Fighting rebels seem easy to avoid any territorial loss tbh, and I am afraid that playing as Delhi will make unifying India super easy if we succeed situation without any loss of lands
 
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What is the terrain type in the gulf of Kutch called? Salt banks? That's super interesting, a new terrain type!
Also, why is the culture of Kutch Sindhi and not Kutchi? I'd think that distinction would be much welcome. Kutchi as a language too is somewhere inbetween Sindhi and Gujrati. Additionally, a Saurashtri culture can also be considered for Saurashtra region.
Salt Pan, is a type of wasteland, for graphical purposes.
 
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Daaamn, good catch! And after hard looking I even managed to spot 3 far south, but not on the coast, but a bit inland.....
Still for such a massive landmass with the fact that the sugarcane cultivation was the cashcrop before cashcrops were a thing. And a first foundation stone for setting up a colonial empire by the Spanish and Portogesee....
I think there should be more sugarcane in India
I count at least 29 Sugar provinces at a first glance. How many would you think are needed?
 
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View attachment 1190022
Intresting, Tibet and Burma have some uncolonized locations, are there any society of pops or where they really that unorganized?
There are some, yes, but they will be shown and discussed in their respective Tinto Maps.
 
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make the various trade - climate - topography - yadayada maps flat colours again. I know chose this current style to mantain consistency with the basic diplomatic map, but it's quite confusing to look at it as it stands now
 
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