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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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I definitely agree with some other posters that the Gibraltar location be a bit smaller, just because, should some enterprising naval power take the Rock and hold onto it for some time, it won't look huge compared to what is actually held. It doesn't need to be confined to the Rock itself, but a location that's say half the size would look better.

Also, from other maps we've seen, Croatia is under a personal union with Hungary, so perhaps Galicia and Leon, having been united for much less time with Castile than Croatia with Hungry, be in personal union as well?
 
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We got that initially, but it got completely messed up when we added the Chinese and Indian pops...
Here's a suggestion to avoid this issue : have only the region the camera is centered on + neighboring regions be taken into account for the population density to color gradient. I imagine if it's possible to limit the gradient on the provinces of a specific country, then it might be possible to do it for specific regions ? That way it's still possible to view relative differences that are close geographically without having very high density places mess up the gradient for the whole map
 
On this topic I would love the possibility of leaving those allies as direct self-ruled vassals, like it happened with the Tlaxcalan republic, that existed right until the Mexican Independence. They were declared hidalgos, self-ruled and participated themselves in colonisation of the North.

You can read more about that in:
UN GOBIERNO DE INDIOS: TLAXCALA, 1519-1750, from Mexican historian Andrea Martínez Baracs
Sure, and they could go further to allow them to travel and stablish contact with the philippines as an event chain to become part of the territory.
 
Unrelated to Iberia, but could you rethink what "grassland" terrain is? In previous paradox games grasslands have been used both as "default terrain" representing sparse farmland (much of europe for example) as well as actual grassland plains (like the Great Plains in america). Wouldn't it make sense to finally distinguish between the two? Or maybe just reserve grassland for the actual grasslands and use farmlands more liberally?
It would be beneficial to categorize grasslands into several subtypes, both natural and man-influenced:

Temperate Grasslands:
  • Steppe
  • Prairie
  • Pampa
  • Veld
  • Heathland and Moorland
Mediterranean Savanna and Grassland:
  • California Central Valley Grasslands
  • Dehesa System and Portuguese Montado
Grasslands Present within Xeric Shrubland Ecoregion
  • A prime example of this would be the Deccan Thorn Scrub Forests, which is a blend of dry grassland and sparse, short thorny trees.

Furthermore, vegetation types such as shrubland and scrubland should be incorporated into the game, replacing many areas of the ''vague'' grassland. A significant portion of Mediterranean regions have this type of vegetation, including chaparral, macchia, maquis, matorral, fynbos, etc.

And I don't feel that the name of Cold Arid is correct. I would never say that the climate of La Mancha or Valencia is Cold Arid. Maybe use Arid Mediterranean?
Semi-Arid should be more appropriate.

3. There's more Cold Arid across the world, like in the Central Asian steppes.
It might be beneficial to categorize the arid climate into both arid and semi-arid types. While I understand that this may not offer any gameplay advantages, it could potentially impact factors such as population dynamics and army attrition.

Additionally, the vegetation in Ferrol could have been a true forest, as a segment of the ancient temperate rainforest, known as Fragas do Eume, is still present there today.
 
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What is next week's Tinto Maps? You told us about Iberia last week, so I think you can this time too. By the way if I had to choose between Monaco (random city state), Liechtenstein (generic HRE minor that got lucky), Couto Misto (three farming villages populated by fifty people and three goats) and San Marino (oldest extant republic in the world, also Roman style consuls) I would choose San Marino. Hope you keep this in mind!
The very end of the post says next week will show France. It may have been edited in though, as I don't remember reading it earlier.
 
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the official classification of Spain considerably reduces the cold steppe zone (BSk) and increases the Mediterranean one (Csa and Csb). I think this classification is closer to reality.
Unfortunately, there's this thing called "global warming" the last few decades, so having the borders moved to colder and (in Iberia) dryer seems to make sense?
 
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Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
View attachment 1134319
The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
View attachment 1134322
Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
View attachment 1134324
Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
View attachment 1134325
View attachment 1134326
View attachment 1134378
Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
View attachment 1134456
Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
View attachment 1134335
The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
View attachment 1134336
This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
View attachment 1134381
This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
View attachment 1134340

And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
The Location of Villaviciosa is mostly Incorrect, the area mostly represents the port village of Gijón and surrounding villages in the area. Villaviciosa is in the border with Llanes.

Gijón was a quite important port in the area
 
Before we arrive to the Italian peninsula, I would like to know when do you consider a tag worth adding? I mean both as a vassal or as an independent nation. I want to do some research on my area but also don't want to waste both our times. :)
 
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I'm interested in cultural and religious map mode of China. We al ready know Yuan will be ruling dynasty in China.
Honestly, all I want was to tell a matryoshka doll joke. xD

China's map is likely to be released after all European things - One thing that I worry is that, Yuan is kinda too big to be released in one single thread.
 
I am from Villaviciosa and I say this is my favourite representation of the peninsula in any Paradox game since ever. The level of detail maybe could be better but is galaxies away of any previous version.
 
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I may have missed answer about it, but can/will any of the terrain factors change during the game? The period the game covers is known for the Little Ice Age, and there was also significant draining of marshes and forest clearing
 
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@Pavía @Johan I don't know to which of you address this question, but can the optimal raw resource of a location change during the gameplay?

Wool was a very important resource Spain in 1337 and it seems more or less well modeled. However, in the XVIII century excessive economic dependence on sheep was a main economic debate in Aragon, with political repercusions. Some "Ilustrados" (Enlightment economic reformers) tried to develop other primary activities that were seen as more advanced (Check for example, « Los otros ganados de fauno y los ataques a la Mesta). So, being able to have events or enact decisions during a game to develop more profitable raw materials would be nice.

I know Johan mentioned you can get different basic materials from a location, but there was penalties if it was no the optimal for the place. I remember stone was not a good choice for RGO in Kalmar, for example. What I'm asking is whether we could spend gold to "build a farm" that negates penalties for getting cattle/livestock/Etc in a location. Probably that should be gated behind certain technology or era, allowing the player to economically develop its country by upgrading RGOs if you start in a relatively poorer area.

The concept goes beyond livestock. Irrigation projects were major economic endeavours and one of its effects tended to be the change from simpler cereal production (low prices meant it was a bad cash crop). Building or extending some channels allowed to change the crops of certain locations greatly improving them. So the impact of the Imperial Canal of Aragon should be modeled (among other things) by upgrading the goods of certain locations.

Another historic way of investing was planting vineyards, olive or fruits. Since these type of crops require bigger investments and sometimes take a few years before it start producing, they were a long term investment. Some areas did not produce X raw material in 1337 but eventually developed it after major economic investment in the area. Some other never developed in the period, but geographically they could have.

Would be a way to do any of that in project Caesar?
 
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Honestly, all I want was to tell a matryoshka doll joke. xD

China's map is likely to be released after all European things - One thing that I worry is that, Yuan is kinda too big to be released in one single thread.
I agree. China is big to be released in one DD. I presume they'll go releasing North and South China seperately. Still if possible I would like one giant DD map for entire China.

Even though I'm from Europe in EU4 I like playing in Far East Asia. That's why I like China.
 
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