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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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Thank you for your feedback I have updated the post now :)


The location of Almeida/Pinhel added, Viseu now only goes to the Mondego, Coimbra and Guarda now have a border south of the Mondego, some mountains have been removed and some of the vegetation and topography changed.

For the provinces: Estremadura is smaller and Ribatejo is now Alto Alentejo and Alentejo is Baixo Alentejo.
 
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I'm disappointed and really hope Valencian culture is respected. Since Reconquista times Valencia has his very own culture and history clearly self declared. With posthumous authors like Joanot Martorell, referencing his literature as Valencian language, for valencian people. Year 1460. And many other great valencian figures like the Borgia's, referencing themselves as valencian, not catalans by any means.

Describing Valencia as Catalan culture is a XXI century invention, politically driven by secessionists by the way.

Also about the terrain MAP. Makes 0 sense to include Valencia coast as cold arid. 90% of valencia coastline is "marjal" lands, which go from Saguntum to Dianium. These coastal lands are extremly wet, and nowadays are exploited for rice cultivation, hence the origin of Valencian Paella. Also used vastly as great lands for citrus orchads. A fruit of tropical weather needs. Valencia is famous for its oranges and mandarines, being nowadays the world largest producer. The interior lands of valencia are composed of meditterranean forests. Makes 0 sense to put valencia with the same terrain as Madrid.

People disliking your post but nobody disproving it. Typical.

I thought the same as you, it is a shame when valencia culture was a distinct culture as far as the 9th century valencian poetry, way before the reconquista.

Anyway...
 
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People disliking your post but nobody disproving it. Typical.

I thought the same as you, it is a shame when valencia culture was a distinct culture as far as the 9th century valencian poetry, way before the reconquista.

Anyway...
I'll tell you the same. It is very tiring to have to argue evidence. Maybe define what "culture" means to you to see if the conversation can make sense.
 
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People disliking your post but nobody disproving it. Typical.

I thought the same as you, it is a shame when valencia culture was a distinct culture as far as the 9th century valencian poetry, way before the reconquista.

Anyway...

Because its a bunch of pseudohistorical bs promoted by politicians.

Regarding the game, the cultures are based on languages, as stated. Just like Valencia, Murcia and Andalusia have castillian culture, even if obviously the regions are not culturally the same to Castille. It has been like this in all paradox games.

But you don't have people from there crying, because their 21st century politicians are not bent into pseudohistory and pseudoscience to create a rift with the other spanish speaking areas.
If you want to include the 9th century Valencian in the game, I hope that you are open to other pseudohistory like having mormon egypt in the USA, Columbus and Leonardo being Catalan, or Ming China colonizing the world.
 
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pseudohistory and pseudoscience to create a rift with the other spanish speaking areas.

you can keep repeating that, it won't make it true. It is documented.

Not only in the documents i mentioned, but the ones mentioned by the OP of the golden century of valencian literature.

Now it turns out that Joanot Martorell being vaalencian and writing proudly in valencian is pseudohistory, not the inventions of XXI century catalonian politicians lmao.
 
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you can keep repeating that, it won't make it true. It is documented.

Not only in the documents i mentioned, but the ones mentioned by the OP of the golden century of valencian literature.

Now it turns out that Joanot Martorell being vaalencian and writing proudly in valencian is pseudohistory, not the inventions of XXI century catalonian politicians lmao.

Valencian and Catalan are the same, just as Spanish and Castilian. You can call it however you like it. They are names. Joanot called it Valencian, good for him. Nobody is denying what he did or wrote or that the Valencian golden age was a thing.
The pseudohistory is pretending that Valencian is the only modern romance language in Spain that originated before the reconquista. The history of the language is well known and documented, originating as a dialect of Occitan in Old Catalonia, which you know, is next to occitania, and eventually becoming its own thing.
 
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Wikipedia. Nuff said. I'm not going to get into the latest blaverism-pamcatalanism fight. Boring. But saying that Spanish culture is the same as Castilian culture reeks of the same political bias you were criticising in others. Also boring.
 
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Wikipedia. Nuff said. I'm not going to get into the latest blaverism-pamcatalanism fight. Boring. But saying that Spanish culture is the same as Castilian culture reeks of the same political bias you were criticising in others. Also boring.
I was talking about Spanish language and Catalan language, not cultures.

Because I just said this

Regarding the game, the cultures are based on languages, as stated. Just like Valencia, Murcia and Andalusia have castillian culture, even if obviously the regions are not culturally the same to Castille. It has been like this in all paradox games.
 
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Valencian and Catalan are the same, just as Spanish and Castilian. You can call it however you like it. They are names. Joanot called it Valencian, good for him. Nobody is denying what he did or wrote or that the Valencian golden age was a thing.
No, it isn't. Saying that is as stupid as saying catalonian and occitan are the same because the language is basically the same.
The pseudohistory is pretending that Valencian is the only modern romance language in Spain that originated before the reconquista.

Nobody is claimed that. In fact Valencian existed BEFORE the reconquista. And that is a documented fact. You can't call valencian culture Catalonian when it existed before any catalonian or aragonese set foot on the lands. You just can't.

Yes, they all have the same root in occitania as you well claimed, but they don't come from occitanian. They developed similarly because of proximity and because of them all being romance. Just like all language develop similarly when they have the same root and they are close to each other. But just as we don't call catalonian culture occitan, it makes nos ense to call valencian culture occitan. Castillian and astur leonese are much more related, and we still have the historical rigor to put them separately.

If you had called a scholar of the time catalonian he would have been very confused. Particularly when they were the ones going to Lleida to teach, in fact introducing elements of the valencian variant in catalonia, rather than the other way around.
 
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I was talking about Spanish language and Catalan language, not cultures.

Because I just said this

Spanish language is not Castilian language either. :p
 
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In fact Valencian existed BEFORE the reconquista. And that is a documented fact. You can't call valencian culture Catalonian when it existed before any catalonian or aragonese set foot on the lands. You just can't.

Yes, they all have the same root in occitania as you well claimed, but they don't come from occitanian. They developed similarly because of proximity and because of them all being romance. Just like all language develop similarly when they have the same root and they are close to each other. But just as we don't call catalonian culture occitan, it makes nos ense to call valencian culture occitan. Castillian and astur leonese are much more related, and we still have the historical rigor to put them separately.

If you had called a scholar of the time catalonian he would have been very confused. Particularly when they were the ones going to Lleida to teach, in fact introducing elements of the valencian variant in catalonia, rather than the other way around.
So do you think the reconqusita did not spread the Occitan-Catalan language south and that it always existed in the region with the same borders?
 
So do you think the reconqusita did not spread the Occitan-Catalan language south and that it always existed in the region with the same borders?

It's not matter of what i thin, it is a matter of that we have documented evidence from before the reconquista that the common population already used valencian languuage before the reconquista. So no, I don't think it spread, it was already the romance language of the area, just like occitan did not spread through catalonia, catalonian was simply the romance common language of the area, as they developed. Latin romance language did not develop through immigration, I hope you understand that basic fact. They simply developed independently from each other but closely related by geography. That is why in different regions you have different variants of latin romance vulgar language, closely related the closer geographically they were from each other.

Did some catalonians help popularizing the common romance language after the reconquistar after several centuries of muslim occupation? Yeah, maybe? I don't know to what extent the muslim population would have enforce arab on the local population but I suspect it would have been very little in the early middle ages.
 
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Extract from the Valencian Language Academy. Stop talking nonsense and let's close the issue. You are being ridiculous.

View attachment 1136580

View attachment 1136581

Then call it Valencian too in the game.
In school the signature is called valencian language too.
if is the same language i guess for catalan people not will be a problem devs put valencian culture in the catalan provinces.
 
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